Noobish question: Was the Pz IV a failure as a MBT on the Eastern front?

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Shmavis:

I'll take even a short-barrelled Pz IV over a Pz III. The Pz III's sturdier turret doesn't make up for its weak main armament. I've read about Pz III's firing on KV-1's from 30 and even 10(!) meters without penetrating. At least the early Pz IV's have HC ammo.

Late PzKpfw IIIJ has a L/60 gun, which with its Tungsten core ammunition can penetrate a KV-1 frontally. PzKpfw IV can only barely do the same with hollow charge. Both the IIIJ late model and Pz IV's HC rounds come available at the same date, December 1941. Without HC the Pz IV can't kill even T-34's, which Pz III with the short 50 can do.

PzKpfw IIIN has the 75mm L/24 gun, but for AT role the long 50mm is better.

[Joachim]

...Plus the Tungsten of the 50L60 hits while the slow HC of the 75L24 usually misses. OTOH the behind armor effect of the HC is better.

If you treat the PzIV as an uparmored Marder with AP capabilities, use keyholing and consider local odds you will have a good tank handling most situations.

Most Allied tanks can kill it? So what - it can kill most Allied tanks.

Gruß

Joachim

[FM Paul Heinrik]

What's "keyholing" in ref. to tank combat?

[Sergei]

Having a fire position with narrow 'lane' of fire.

[Shmavis]

Originally posted by Sergei:

Late PzKpfw IIIJ has a L/60 gun, which with its Tungsten core ammunition can penetrate a KV-1 frontally.

What's the maximum range at which this is possible? I seem to remember that there weren't many tungsten rounds for each panzer.

[Vossiewulf]

Has anyone ever detected a pattern in how the AI uses "special" ammo types? From what I've seen, Pz-IIIs seem to think of the tungsten rounds as a last resort, only using them when they run out of AP.

[Sergei]

At 475m a regular IIIJ with Tungsten has a 62% hit chance and a fair chance of kill; the KV-1 M1941 has a 51% hit chance and OK chance to kill.

Meanwhile, a IVF with HC has no chances whatsoever of killing the KV frontally (KV-1 M41 has turret front of 100mm and hull front of 75+20mm@30*, while L/24 gun's HC shell penetrates only 82mm) - it has a hit chance of 54%. The KV has a 55% hit chance against the PzIV and an OK kill chance.

If the KV exposes its flank, then the PzIV has a a low kill chance. The IIIJ has an OK chance.

Tungsten rounds are rarer than HC rounds, as the metal (aka. Wolfram) was scarce in German-controlled Europe. The precise loadout in CM is highly random, sometimes you get none, sometimes a dozen.

I recall they are more likely to use the effective round when the target is fully identified. It also depends on hit chance.

[Mattias]

A real world note regarding the Pzgr 40 for the 50mm L/60; apparently it was notorious for causing the shell casing to stick in the chamber (case expansion), which than had to be cleared from the outside with the cleaning rod.

To steer back towards the subject a bit it can be noted that in 1941 a Pz IV was armed with a 50mm L/60 for test purposes. Other guns that were tested were a 75mm L/40, an L/33 (to have a gun that didn't extend beyond the tank front) and a 75/55mm L/45 with conical barrel.

M.

[Mr. Tittles]

The 50mm L60 tungsten round was the most common special ammo as it was produced in larger numbers than any other German caliber tungsten round. It was not produced throughout the war but gave extended life to PanzerIII and Pak38 units.

[HarryInk]

The T-34 was, I believe, also a complete pain to load after your first half-dozen shots were gone. That was about all that was stored of each ammo type ready-to-hand in the turret. Thereafter the loader had to rip up rubber mats from the floor and haul up shells from bins under his feet.

Not something worth modelling in CM, I think, but if I was commanding a 34, I'd be hoping that my loader was fit and nimble, and that - were I still cranking after I'd let off my ready ammo - I had breaks in the combat to allow the turret ammo holders to be replenished.

Apparently the seats for the turret crew were actually fixed on the hull, so you'd have to squeeze about a bit when traversing. Anyone know if I've got that right? Anyway, sounds like a bitch to be inside of when the world's pitching and rolling and banging on the outside trying to get in!

[Andrew H.]

To some extent, Pz IVs (although this is true of some other German tanks as well) don't seem to be as effective as they were in real life because they typically aren't used the way they really were in combat. This is exacerbated by borg spotting.

As to the first point, it was rare for medium tanks like the Pz IV long (or the Panther, for that matter) to appear in groups smaller than a company - Pz Div. doctrine was to keep the tanks together, and this was generally adhered to. This makes - in practical terms - the accuracy advantage that German tanks have much more effective than it is when fewer tanks are involved, due to the larger number of shots being taken. I.e., a T-34 vs. a Pz IV at 800 meters or so has a decent chance of taking out the Pz IV. The Pz IV has a better chance of defeating the T-34, but the odds aren't crushing, and in many cases, the T-34 will be the last tank standing. Take 15 T-34s vs 15 Pz IVs, and the chances of you having any T-34s left at the end of the battle are very small.

Without borg spotting, the Pz IV's advantage would be even greater...and it would be greater still without the all-seeing hand of the player.

[Shmavis]

That just reminded me of something: Why aren't there any Armored vehicle HQs above the platoon level? I'll do a forum search on this, too.