Horus Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 take a look here http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/netzkultur/0,1518,232497,00.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 :confused: :eek: :mad: Great! The only place where they mention Combat Mission is a citation of somebody who asked a valid question in a very questionable way on CDV's CM forum. Perhaps the authors should have taken a look at this forum to get a more balanced look. They don't seem to notice that there are also gamers who like strategy/war games because of the thinking required to play them, not because they happen to portray WWII. My thoughts: If you don't understand German, you don't miss anything if you don't read it. If you understand German, you don't miss anything if you don't read it either. Dschugaschwili [ January 27, 2003, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: Dschugaschwili ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Gotta love Der Spiegel 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindan Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 this is one of the worst things I ever read in Spiegel. I just wrote an email to the editor, telling them what I think of it. disgusting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Hehe, just found it while browsing through the news. That just made my day! I usually like the SPIEGEL but so far I've never read a intelligent, unbiased article covering Computer games and especially wargames outside of gaming mags. Funny: although they show the cover of the Combat Mission package, most of the time they write about 'Sudden Strike' and show screenies of 'Panzer General'... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindan Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 the automated reply-letter just arrived in my inbox. they say "thank you for your feedback, we appreciate it very much"... to bad a robot can't read! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Originally posted by Lindan: this is one of the worst things I ever read in Spiegel. I just wrote an email to the editor, telling them what I think of it. disgusting. olli, I am shocked, I never had you down as a JU member Any other closet crypto-unionists here? I gave up reading Der Spiegel when they tried to compete with 'Focus' in 1993. Whenever I pick one up these days I note they do really well at it too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Originally posted by Lindan: this is one of the worst things I ever read in Spiegel. I just wrote an email to the editor, telling them what I think of it. disgusting. Too bad they don't have a discussion area. I certainly won't give my e-mail adress to anybody who writes such an article. Dschugaschwili 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Originally posted by Dschugaschwili: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Lindan: this is one of the worst things I ever read in Spiegel. I just wrote an email to the editor, telling them what I think of it. disgusting. Too bad they don't have a discussion area. I certainly won't give my e-mail adress to anybody who writes such an article. Dschugaschwili </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horus Posted January 27, 2003 Author Share Posted January 27, 2003 Too bad they don't have a discussion area.http://www.spiegel.de/forum/ look here 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindan Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 No, I'm not an undercover JU agent. After reading this crap I got a bit out of control for some minutes and - it just happened. I planned to cancel my abo anyways. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 "...Die anderen kämpfen, genau 60 Jahre später, in einem virtuellen Stalingrad - per Mausklick und Joystick, daheim am Computer oder auf Partys in Stadthallen und Sportarenen, bei Pizza und Pommes, Red Bull und Flaschenbier. Trasnlation: "The others fight, exactly 60 years later, in a virtual Stalingrad - with mouse clicks and joysticks, at home at their PC or at Parties in town halls and sports arenas, with Pizzas and frensh fries, Red Bull and Beer." OK, that's it! I hereby call for a CM - "Party" in a local "sports arena"! I want Pizzas! I want Flaschenbier! Blood! Violence! Uniforms! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtMuhammed Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Now you know why I stick to Das Bild. They don't even attempt to be "insightful" and they have better looking women. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Yes! Girls in uniforms. Pizza! Beer! More girls. Raaaaaaaa.... Hmm, should this be moved to the German language forum? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Originally posted by ParaBellum: OK, that's it! I hereby call for a CM - "Party" in a local "sports arena"! I want Pizzas! I want Flaschenbier! Blood! Violence! Uniforms! I once played a game of CMBO at a LAN-Party. And we even had pizza and beer! No uniforms though. And when we want violence and blood we can always play Quake3 with 15 players in Q3DM1. Dschugaschwili 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolloff Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 I was surprised you gave me these JU flyers in Mannheim Lindan. But now I know ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Wir koennen die Diskussion auch hier fortsetzen. Auf Deutsch, nicht auf Neudeutsch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Originally posted by Andreas: olli, I am shocked, I never had you down as a JU member Any other closet crypto-unionists here? I gave up reading Der Spiegel when they tried to compete with 'Focus' in 1993. Whenever I pick one up these days I note they do really well at it too. hehe, exactly. I was gonna say something about Spiegel being a commie gutter rag, but then I would have been labeled a Stoiber disciple...so yeah, that Focus statement of yours really hits the nail, all too true... but then nothing can really be as poor as Focus... my wife had the Spiegel subscribed years ago (student's subscription price) but I made her cancel that. Augstein is dead. FJS is dead. They are dancing together now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 I have written a letter to the magazine earlier today (already posted in the German Speaking Forum), and since I had to translate it for Steve and Charles anway, I thought I could as well post it here in english for those that are interested. Sorry about the english, it was a rush translation - but I think it's still a little better than Babelfish Martin Dear Ladies and Gentlemen, I am writing to you as the President of Battlefront.com, the developer of the game "Combat Mission", which you are using as an example in your article for "macabre computer games". Unfortunately I have to voice a determined protest against your uni-lateral article, as far as our game "Combat Mission" is concerned which you are using - apparently as an extremely bad example? - at the very beginning of your article. a) Unlike what your article suggests, recently conducted surveys on our board (www.battlefront.com) show that the average age of our members is around 35 years. Many of those are active or ex-soldiers, as well as military historians (professionell and amateur). "Combat Mission" is not a shooter - the player is not pulling "the trigger", but commands the movements and actions of his units from a strategic perspective. "Combat Mission" has been developed after several years of intense military historical research and with extreme detail. This leads to a realistic simulation of military conflict in the Second World War. We have left out "cheap effects" and violance out of the game on purpose, however, because in our view this would be ridiculing this very serious topic. There is no blood in "Combat Mission", and only realistic military strategy and avoiding of casualties will lead to success. There are no supermen in "Combat Mission", which can defeat whole armies single-handedly, and whose inclusion would suggest to the player that this might be possible in real life, too. If there is something to learn from our realistic combat simulation, then it is that war is cruel and random. Quotes which you are using in your article are often aiming at improving this part of the simulation, and can - if used out of context - of course easily be misunderstood. c) Besides the game itself, we are offering on our website numerous books about the topic. Many of our fans have only discovered their interest in WWII through the game, and are now debating the entire topic, especially the historical and military historical apsects. Both, the books and the games, together with the discussions on our message board, deliver a detailed background to the events more than 60 years ago, and enhance knowledge and understanding. A computer game like "Combat Mission", with the correct background and not striving for mere effects, is nothing else but an alternative medium to books and memories of that time. And a very useful, too - it allows the military historian to re-live the historical battles in a realistically topographical environment. Not unlike "replaying" the large battles like Waterloo and Austerlitz, one can learn a lot about military historical developments in this way. The fact that the Second World War only happened slightly over 60 years ago, and not more than 100 years ago, and that a computer has replaced the miniature soldiers of the past, does not turn this into a "macabre" past-time suddenly. d) "Combat Mission" simply does not fit into the lineup of games you have mentioned in your article. It is a real tactical simulator, not a shooter, and not your typical strategy game. In no other game forum your will find discussions about the impact of infra structure and politics on the outcome of the Second World War, or reviews of a new released biography of a russian General, or debates about current political developments in the world. In no other game forum you will find military historians from the entire world, physicians, active officers, plumbers, farmers and 12.000 other members hotly discussing the game, the history and the future. Concluding I would like to say (as a journalist), that in my view the objective viewpoint in your article has entirely given way to a generic undertone, which could be best described as "computer games are evil - ban them all". This constitutes an entirely unprofessional journalistic approach, and might increase your circulation through sensationalism, but it is a substantial generalisation and polarization of the subject, and simply imbalanced research. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSColonel_131st Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Hey Moon, good letter. I wrote something similar earlier, but it got eaten by the forum software over there. Your basic point that CMBB is a tool for the military historian, and inspires others to dive into the history of WW2 was also my main point. I'm one of the guys who came here owning a single book about Tanks from WW1 to today, the rest was about airwar. A month later I'm already reading Achtung Panzer and ordered another book on german Infantry Squad Tactics plus a print of the Tiger. If that is the result of a mindless game, then I dont know... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Looking over it I cannot help to blame CDV once again. CDV, who is representing Combat Mission in the eyes of Spiegel magazine is going all crazy about how realistic the game is - Sudden Strike that is. CDV is giving a damn about whether Combat Mission is actually a (more) serious simulation, they fire everything they have in the realism department on Sudden Strike, and they fail to impress the audience with that claim. Afterwards there is no room left for argueing about more serious games. The cover picture of CM2 in Europe also leaves no room for assuming this game is any different than the others (the US one isn't brillant either, but at least it is different from the crappier games). I cannot blame Spiegel for throwing CM into the bowl with these others when the official representative helps pushing it in. Of course, overall the Spiegel article is extremly bad journalism because they fail to realize that teenagers are what they are - they take contents they face the only way their inexperience allows them to take it: inappropriate jokes, cool sayings, clichee's. Moon's comments on that their dealing with WW2 this way may look disgusting at this point, but - if they stay with the game and the community for some time - that still means many of them will leave with a better impression of what war is like, something much of the German (and other nations) population is surely missing. [ January 27, 2003, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: redwolf ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schoerner Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Why the excitement? The intention of this article is clear. It's typically for Spiegel (BMG). Now imagine, that in 10 years wargames will be outlawed and forbidden and in 50 years this will be told as truth about the wargamers anno 2000. Then you have an idea, about the truth-salary of all the Spiegel-stories about Germany in WWII... The really regrettable thing is, that people are reading such (and others) articles and think, that only this single article was so wrong and it's the exception of the rule. And no one starts to question himself, what else is a lie, if even such primitive lies are possible? We want the lie. And we deserve it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolloff Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Originally posted by Schoerner: We want the lie. And we deserve it. Cool quote! Although it sounds genuinely C-movie I believe it´s Hans Rosenthal in the last episode of Dalli Dalli, right? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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