What does the community need??

[MG-42]

Hi Guys,

Well I think I've been around the CM:BB community for long enough to feel a small part of the family and I've played enough CM:BB to know that I'm going to be hooked for life and I've been nurtured over the past few months by countless "keyboard warriors." It's time to give something back.

I'm a fully qualified Multimedia Developer (skilled in both CD-ROM and website production) and with a little free time coming up over the next few weeks I'm doing a little recon to see what kind of website the community would most benefit from.

So let's have a few ideas so we can discuss and see where we go.

Kindest

MG

[ March 23, 2003, 05:49 AM: Message edited by: MG-42 ]

[Erwin Rommel]

I personally would like a better organized Mod site...One that has the Mods broken down into what they type they are and what game they go to(ie..Tiger tank mods,Panther Mods etc..)instead of jumbled up and mixed together like CMMODS.I like CMMODS but I do not like how disorganized it is..I find it a pain in the rump having to sort through say all the German Vehicles mods just to find a particular one.

A site similar to CMOUTPOST is what I am talking about...Reason being they have not updated anything for quite some time..

[ March 23, 2003, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Erwin Rommel ]

[Lou2000]

Its going to be hard to find something that hasnt already been done or covered on another site and as I'm sure you are only too well aware, one factor to take into account is the amount of bandwidth your site will have available.

If you are thinking about hosting mods .... it will need to be fast enough to cope with the demand. I actually find CMMODS OK for finding what I want just by using the 'list by....' option, however it isnt the fastest (even on broadband) - but it works ! And CMMOS mods are taken care of at combatmission.com . A CM forum has obviously already been covered

So unless you want to try to become 'THE' CM mod site, what is left .... well this is only my oppinion but maybe a site dedicated to multiplayer CM.

I know we have the opponent finder forum but perhaps somewhere that could go one step further, where players could list their preferences for battles type and size and leave them available as a standard set of prefs....

PBEM or Ip, Allied, Axis, Any, prefered battle type, prefered points/map size, premade or QB map etc and an indicator to show if they are currently seeking opponents or have a full playlist.

Im sure somebody will point out the Tournament House that has a similar 'open' & 'closed' flag for games... but I have had NO response from anybody when trying to establish a game and never had anybody try get in touch to start one.

You could even include a message area or even chat. An AAR section. An area where scenario designers could post multiplayer scenarios for testing & comments. A list of links to recommeded maps .... though probably better not to host them unless the map designer is happy with that.

I know im not alone in thinking that CM multiplayer is the best way to experience CM ... but I do feel it is the area least covered by websites etc. If you go down that route .... drop me a line as I have another suggestion, well a request really !

Lou2000

[ March 23, 2003, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: Lou2000 ]

[Zarquon]

An important part of this forum is about various game tactics. People engage in long discussions, ask for opinions, newbie advice and so on. There are lots of fine sites with strategy articles and AARs.

Now, I get the most fun out of first seeing the map in a QB or scenario, look at my assets and then start developing a plan. What makes the game fascinating for me is that there are so many different playing styles out there. When two people are confronted with the same challenge, they will almost centainly come up with totally different plans and even a minor detail in planning can result in a huge difference in the outcome.

After Action Reports are about a finished business. Planning is discussed in the forum, sometimes at great length, but it's hard to properly illustrate tactics without specifics. What about a site for writing about battle plans instead of AARs?

First, there could be an option to post a new situation. Upload a few screenshots of the map (small QBs would be best), then describe the forces available to the player. Finally, let everyone post his ideas.

Example:

Defense of a small village, 1500 pts, overcast, dawn.

Map:

[left view]

[right view]

[top-down view]

Your forces:

[a rifle company, a few minefields, wire, one 81mm offboard, three AT guns, three halftracks and two tank destroyers]

How would YOU set up?

Just copy the screenshots, fire up a graphics program and place a few numbers/letters on them. There should be a common numbering system, e.g. 1,2,3 are the inf platoons, AT1-3 are the guns and so on. If you want, you can even illustrate planned fields of fire for the guns with a few lines.

When describing a plan for attacking, arrows show the path of advance.

Next, write a *short* description of what you will do and why you do it that way.

Restrict the <textarea> tag for the description to a certain number of lines, so that people are forced to be brief. If they want to quote entire chapters of Clausewitz, they can do so elsewhere.

Let others develop their own plans for this scenario. After a while, you will have a couple of ideas, quite different from one another because it would be pointless to post a plan that has already been described.

And what about having the same scenario/situation posted twice, once for the defense plan and once for the attacker? What would happen when Attack Plan #3 meets Defense Plan #1?

Tactics grogs could show off their skills, newbies could finally see the theoretical beauty of a reverse slope defense and everybody could learn a thing ot two.

To discuss plans you wouldn't need a message board of your own, simply have people start a thread in this forum instead and post a link to it on your site. That way you could easily attract visitors to your site who could then contribute to it.

Call it the Olde CM Tactics Shoppe, the Battle Prologue or whatever you like. Just keep it simple and don't try to create another huge, CM encyclopedia that gets nowhere.

All is quiet on the western front - yet.

[ March 23, 2003, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Zarquon ]

[Speedy]

GROG PORN

[Zarquon]

Maybe it would require some adult verification system, but there's an advantage to that...

[ March 23, 2003, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Zarquon ]

[Fionn]

A clue.

[Zarquon]

Originally posted by Fionn:

A clue.

Just an attempt at giving a clever, tongue-in-cheek reply to people writing two-word, all-capitals replies.

I'm still practicing.

[Fionn]

" I'm still practicing. "

Evidently.

Especially since there was only one capital in the whole reply... hardly the stuff of "all-capitals replies".

[Zarquon]

GROG PORN HAS EIGHT BOLD, CAPITAL LETTERS AND THAT'S SEVEN TOO MANY.

Of course he's right about the porn thing, but that doesn't mean he is allowed to post in capitals. Only Death may do so, if you ask me.

[moneymaxx]

LOU2000, a great idea.

I was searching a long time to find a CM Multiplayer site. I came up with Tournament House too, but never got a reply. I think the problem of TH is that people are listed as open even though they inscribed 2 years ago and never updated there status. I guess there are a lot of people in the list that actually aren't searching for an opponent anymore.

The TH system is not that bad, but the open status should be set to closed after a while automaticly.

Therefore a new multiplayer CM site would be great, it doesn't need a scoring table, but it would help to find a equally skilled or stronger opponent.

Speaking of finding an opponent, I'm looking for one that considers himself a good or very good player to learn from my mistakes (no I'm NOT A MASOCHIST ). Write to schulli_2000@yahoo.com.

I almost forgot, a dedicated AAR site would be nice too.

[ March 23, 2003, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: moneymaxx ]

[MG-42]

Hi All,

i am watching this thread closely to see what comes from it. Here's a few points I'd like to make from what as already been suggested:

</font>

• Erwin - Mod Host - Sorry but I have no intention of going down this road. I think CMMODS does an incredible job of this already and quite frankly the space required and traffic generated is more then I can handle in my current position. Maybe there is an outlet for a more in depth mod review and information site. But my feeling is CMMODS does a satisfactory job. Comments??
  
  Lou - Multiplayer website - This is interesting. Having not ventured too far into the multiplayer experience, I can't instantly relate to the problems of finding opponents etc. but I can see the instant benefits of providing a protal specifically for multiplayers.
  
  Zarquon - Tactics website - So far this one has sparked the most imagination in me. I love tactics, I love to know how to play the game better (cause I suck ). Battle Plans and AAR's can be easily constructed as full interactive presentations with loads of "bells and whistles" I love the idea of seeing how different "armchair generals" apporach a situation. (I loved the section in the Strategy Guide that covered this).
  
  Speedy - Grog Porn - hmmmm......sounds great but you ever tried playin' CM:BB with one hand ?</font>

My feeling towards this so far is very much geared towards Zarquon's idea. I think we could all benefit from indoctrinating the tactics and advice of the "pros" and we all know how popular AAR's are when they are posted in the forums. Moneymaxx also states an interest for an AAR's portal.

However only a small percentage of the community has responded so far (which is disappointing ) Remember I'm offering my services here to produce an impressive fully interactive multimedia rich experience. I'm serious about giving something major back to the community (and it will be something major!!!). So come on what's your thoughts??? AAR/Tactics site is in the lead so far

Say Sumfink

MG-42

[vedder]

Well even though you just said you don't wanna do it, I'd like to see a nice mod site like cmmods. Hell, it could look exactly like cmmods and I wouldn't care, just take some of the burden off of that server. Functionality is what is important, sure you could try making a fantastically designed website about any cmbb subject, but will the demand be there? People like mods, why limit ourselevs to only a couple mod sites?

[MG-42]

Originally posted by vedder:

Well even though you just said you don't wanna do it, I'd like to see a nice mod site like cmmods. Hell, it could look exactly like cmmods and I wouldn't care, just take some of the burden off of that server.

Vedder I wish I could but I cannot cope with the traffic and storage requirements. I really, really, really wish I could

Originally posted by vedder:

Functionality is what is important, sure you could try making a fantastically designed website about any cmbb subject, but will the demand be there?

Trust me Vedder you don't have to remind me about functionality...that's been indoctrinated into me...and as for demand..well this is the reason I'm posing the question....so I can ensure there will be a demand before building.

Take Care and thanks for your suggestion

[vedder]

Sounds like you put a good deal of thought into this project, i wish you the best of luck. That said, since this isn't a mod related website my vote goes towards a tactical tips/AAR website.

[mike_the_wino]

Originally posted by Speedy

GROG PORN

What? Wasn't one photo of Michael Dorosh's mannequin enough? What esle do you want? Grog Dorosh in a speedo, laying on the beach? :eek:

*shudders*

No. What we really need is TANK PORN !!!

"Oh, look at the clean lines on that Jadgpanzer...hhhhmmm. Open those hatches and show me the good stuff."

[nevermind]

MG-42,

My vote goes to tactics/AAR's as well.I would also like articles(somewhat like wargamer.com has)dealing with WWII in general.I feel that the more you know about the era,the more involved you feel in the game.Plus i am cheap and lazy,i want to read alot of the great books out there,but i am cheap and lazy.Im sure there are great articles dealing with the times,ideas,and tactics all in one out there somewhere.

The only problem i see with the tactics idea that you came up with is,who is going to give away some of their great ideas?Sure there would be good stuff for the newbies,but there wouldnt be a whole lot of interest from a Fionn type player(i am assuming,shame on me!).While i am a noob at tactics,if i were to come up with an decent strategy/idea,im not sharing Plus,something you should keep in mind,you said you wanted to give back to the CMBB community.Well,about 2 years from now there will be a new CM.So your site(if you and it want to be around for a long time to come)needs to be flexible,it shouldnt focus just on the eastern front.That being said,focus on WWII tactics in general,gather AARs from CMBB as well as CMBO.Think long term.

Also,and this goes to you as well as BFC/BTS,multiplayer is the future of not only CM,but damn near every game that wants to survive.I would devote atleast some part of your site to it,even if it were a simple board like the URL above refers to.AI can only do so much.When was the last time you played a game for a long period of time,and didnt get to where you could consistantly beat said AI?Unless BFC/BTS has some alien technology that they are going to code into the future CMs,then it will be the same as all the rest,the best AI ive seen,but AI none the less.

Just some ideas.

Ps,

did you say you havent tried much multiplay yet?Yikes,you are missing out!

{edit to add}

This could end up being quite and endeavour,i sincerely offer my services,though they are very limited.I could do some reaserch,moderate,simple site maintanence,etc.Let me know if interested.

[ March 24, 2003, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: nevermind ]

[Lou2000]

Just a few points for consideration on the options so far. I'll try not to be too biased towards my own suggestion

Mod Host -

A large,fast mod site would be excellent, but IMHO Best left alone .... for all the reasons

you stated earlier, especially webspace and bandwidth ... a mod site without enough of

either will soon die !

Multiplayer website -

Well obviously still my preference.

There isnt so much a problem with finding an opponent, but unless its just me I always seem to play the same people ... now there are a couple of opponents I'll always call up for a game. But its always better to play different people as we all have individual ways of playing.

I like moneymaxx's suggestion of a time-out for the 'open' or 'available' flag.

This will prompt people to return regularly to the site to update their status.

A forum for 'Game Talk' would also generate regular visitors and new content.

An AAR section would also keep the site fresh with new items to read .... A good AAR would also add a tactics element to the site making it easy to see what worked and what didnt in a given situation ... not just an 'experts' view of how to fight, sometimes you can learn a valuable lesson from how somebody lost !

And as already pointed out .... multiplayer is 'THE' future of most games ... and CM is no exception.

Tactics -

Another good idea ... I like it ... But ..... there are a number of sites that already have tactics and tutorials, including popular sites like 'boots and tracks' and 'combat mission hq', though neither of their tactics areas are as organised as they could be and dont get updated very often ... Why ?

Is it because once somebody has seen/read the tutorial they rarely return to that page .... how much 'new' content will there be ... as your site will be relying on 3rd party input.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not against a good tactics site, the idea is a good one, i'm not sure exactly how you envisage the site looking and presenting the info, im just not sure how much new content there will be after the initial launch and how often people will return once they have read the first infantry, armour, combined arms tutorial etc.

The BFC tips and tricks doesnt seem to get much traffic ..... is there a reason for that ?

To finnish - though my preference is the multiplayer, you say you 'love tactics' so it may be the best choice for you to do ... people do things best if they enjoy the subject !!

Im just trying to throw in a few thoughts on what is already available and what has the best chance of not just getting people to visit the site - but getting them to return and contribute !

Whatever you decide to do, it will be welcome and I wish you the best of luck with it !

Lou2000

[Hensworth]

My 2c :

I definitely share Lou2000's idea that a new site for finding opponents would be the most interesting. In fact I've been wrestling with the idea myself for some time now. Unfortunately I don't have the technical skills to realize anything on my own.

More specifically I'd be interested in a site where players can find opponents who are NOT interested in competitive ladder play, as there are already plenty of sites who cater for the ones who ARE that way inclined.

A site for players who put emphasis on reliability (e.g. it's very hard to find a player who will start - let alone finish - a lengthy operation), the learning experience (as opposed to the competitive element) and the scenario rather than the QB.

Such a site might quickly attract a community of its own which opens up possibilities of AAR and tactics sections, own tournaments and campaigns, etc.

I'd be happy to help provide content and some webspace (~50 MB) for such an undertaking.

[Ex Bellator]

Damn how did I miss this until now. One thing which I'm having problems with and which I have lost count of the number of others who are likewise, is hosting screenshots.

I don't know if this is omething you could kindly help out with MG-42, but if your website could host peoples images for them to display in threads on this forum it would be greatly appreciated. Just an idea, and probably an unfeasable one at that, but at least I get to say thanks in advance for whatever you decide you can help with.

Cheers!

[Fionn]

Nevermind stated:

" The only problem i see with the tactics idea that you came up with is,who is going to give away some of their great ideas?"

1. Several good players have done that in tactics sites/AARs in the past so there's no reason to expect it wouldn't happen again.

2. I could tell everyone exactly how I succeeded and not 1 in a thousand of you would actually replicate that success due to reasons as disparate as ego, obstinacy, denial etc. So there is actually very little risk to top players from giving all their "secrets" away since all they will do is raise the average level of players a bit. They won't suddenly catapult everyone up into the stratosphere.

Not politically correct etc but nonetheless true.

" but there wouldnt be a whole lot of interest from a ... good... type player"

I disagree. If a player truly is excellent at the game and has an excellent understanding of real-world tactics then they will, generally, always be interested in discussing tactics, facilitating a free exchange of ideas. This would cause them to be interested in such a site. If I wasn't continually interested in tactics and AARs etc why would I be keeping over 1 Gb of CMBB AAR movies ? Answer: I keep them to illustrate tactical points to people because irrespective of my attitude towards the despicable inhumanity and merciless animalism exhibited by members of this forum towards innocent civilians I am STILL interested in tactics. I presume that the same basic interests lie, perhaps quiescent, within others.

" While i am a noob at tactics,if i were to come up with an decent strategy/idea,im not sharing"

All of the tactics we come up with are based on real-world tactics. As such the difference between the average player and the excellent player lies more in fingerspitzengefehl ( sic), coup d'oeil etc and far less in knowing more about tactics/history.

So, sharing one's tactics doesn't inculcate others with one's coup d'oeil or "sense" of battle and, as such, said sharing doesn't detract from one's advantage in any meaningful way.

Of course you will get people who think that sharing the secrets of their mechanised attack formation "which always wins" will give others the secret to unlock the game. Those people are, without exception, only motivated beginners in the study of tactics and have not yet progressed beyond learning their platoon battle drills and low-scale tactics of fire and manoeuvre. As such people with that mindset won't really have all that much to offer and having them keep their secrets to themselves won't really impact things much one way or the other.

In addition it is true to state that when they see advanced issues being discussed on-site they will be drawn into discussion and so will, in the end, at what they know to the sum total of knowledge at said site.

General points:

If AARs were done I would counsel that they should be done from both sides and feature examination of the thought processes of both players so that people could LEARN ALL the lessons and not just see someone show off re: their "latest win".

Content for tactics sites: You'd have to line up good, regular, content... Difficult to do but not impossible. As with all things, you'd have to lay the groundwork before going public. There would be no reason to rely on the "build it and they will submit" line of reasoning.

Multiplayer: There are ladders enough out there. Providing a ladder is worth nothing to the community IMO. OTOH the attraction of multiplayer seems to be the greater challenge and tactical variety of it so I'm a bit surprised you seem to see a dichotomy between multiplayer site and tactics site.

AARs: Word of caution. Large-scale AARs take up a lot of space. I've been putting some together of a particular type of engagement ( type of engagement might be probe, advancing over open terrain with no cover, armoured fighting of company vs company level etc) and by the time you include the movie files of 3 or 4 opponents given the same tactical situation and playing the same player ( me) in order to illustrate the strengths and weaknesses of the various plans which they try to put into action one can end up with close to 80 Mb of web space being required.

It is a fascinating sort of AAR of course but it is just a huge undertaking in terms of web space.

Just my opinion of course.

[-E]

Originally posted by Fionn:

So there is actually very little risk to top players from giving all their "secrets" away since all they will do is raise the average level of players a bit. They won't suddenly catapult everyone up into the stratosphere.

Well then, forget that... let's go with GROG PORN!

[Lou2000]

Just to make my point a little clearer ....

When I talk multiplayer ...... I'm not talking a ladder site. I'm more interested for the reasons Sgt_kelly stated ... finding regular, reliable opponents.

And like sgt_kelly, I've played with the idea of creating one ... but as I've not touched html for over 2 years I know there is no way I could do it justice.

Lou

[laxx]

i really tried to look for that pic of the babe with the hmg 42 but all i could find was just a m16 carbine...

[Wisbech_lad]

Free Beer.