The more famous Soviet ground units of WWII.....

[Spook]

being........???

This query comes a bit from this other new CMBB topic:

American views of the East Front

where the initial post linked to an earlier article by David Glantz. This article highlighted the typical limited perspective of East Front history in the eyes of ordinary Americans, and grappled with the reasons for this. It was quite compelling to read.

However.......

Even here, in this CMBB forum, it MIGHT seem as that the "limited perspective" has taken hold a bit.

Not to sound judgemental about it, in fact, I also hold myself accountable. If I am presently asked of division-size units I am familiar with as having fought on the East Front, I can think of many German units, particularly the mechanized or Panzer divisions. But if I was asked on how many comparable veteran Soviet units I know of or their battle records, I could count more fingers on one hand.

And it can be that way sometimes at various CM sites too. Sometimes I will read background histories of "the GD division holding off attacks by the 5th Guards Tank Army" or sumfink.

Ultimately, I hope to rectify this to a degree with increased review of select East Front references over this year. However, I am posting as to provide a topic thread for others to nominate which they think were among the more "legendary" of Soviet ground units, from division-scale on downwards. (Perhaps some corps-sized formations can be advocated too, but I'm disinclined for it to scale up to army level.)

[Spook]

Bump, in case anyone might be willing to venture on "candidate" Soviet divisions & such.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Spook:

Bump, in case anyone might be willing to venture on "candidate" Soviet divisions & such.

It's almost as bad if you look at American history too, from the perspective of an outsider. The Big Red One, Screaming Eagles, Patton's 4th Armored, the Poison Ivy, etc. etc. - US Army history closely identifies with divisions. It has a lot to do with how the press of the time related the stories of these units to the people.

Perhaps the Soviets simply dealt with stuff on a larger scale. Hell, they HAD to - look how freakin' big their military was!

The Commonwealth had a unique situation too - EVERY regiment was dripping with history and quirks and was convinced it was the best. And maybe as a result, the irregular units became the most famous; Lovat's commandos, the SAS, the 6th Airborne, the 1st Airborne, the SBS, etc.

How many people besides JasonC could accurately list which US regiments belonged to which US divisions - much less which were famous, and which weren't? The publicity just didn't flow that way.

If the Germans didn't have a handful of "named" units like GD, LAH, HG, etc., it would be that way with them as well.

Not surprising, from that perspective, that we (especially outside of the former USSR) have no inkling of which units were "famous" (or simply "good").

And under Communism - where everyone is "equal" - I can kind of see a system where units might not be singled out too terribly much for acclaim - though I have no idea whatsoever if this was the case. We all know that units with good records were made Guards units, and individuals who showed valor were made Heroes of the Soviet Union, so there was indeed a tendency to celebrate heroics. Just not sure if it necessarily extended to glorifying units as units.

[ January 15, 2003, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Scott B]

I think there are a handful of units that pop up a few times; in some cases they're difficult to follow because successful units gain "guards" status and then get a different designation; Chuikov's 62nd Army at Stalingrad became 8th Guards Army, etc.

Some candidate units I can think of:

24th Tank Corps, which became 2nd Guards Tank Corps after its raid on Tatsinskaya. Like all Soviet tank and mechanized formations it saw a lot of combat but it is memorable also because it picked up a critical role in Bagration as well.

13th Guards Rifle Division - exceptional combat performance at Stalingrad.

There were numerous units that played central roles in different operations, but the most common "famous" formations are mostly armies, especially tank and guards armies. 16th Army at Moscow, 62nd Army at Stalingrad, etc. I just don't think the Soviet force structure lends itself to "superstar" units like the German one did.

As an aside, in the case of tank and mechanized corps from 1942 onward, they are roughly equivalent to divisions in the western sense. They are different, but they are the comparable unit in size to a Panzer Division.

Scott

[Nippy]

I think the most neglected and overlooked (Soviet) units were the partisan forces. I can never figure out why the French resistance was always featured in just about every WWII movie ever made, while Eastern Front partisans (whose numbers were much larger) received little to no attention.

Propaganda movies aside, the only movie I can think of was "Force 10 from Navirone" and even that portrayed the Yugoslavian partians as nearly helpless without outside help.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Nippy:

I think the most neglected and overlooked (Soviet) units were the partisan forces. I can never figure out why the French resistance was always featured in just about every WWII movie ever made, while Eastern Front partisans (whose numbers were much larger) received little to no attention.

Propaganda movies aside, the only movie I can think of was "Force 10 from Navirone" and even that portrayed the Yugoslavian partians as nearly helpless without outside help.

Can you name any partisan leaders outside of Tito?

Can you name any specific partisan actions or discuss them in detail?

It may be a case of their fame preceding their actual deeds. Some historians (not me) would argue their importance was vastly over-rated. Hence their relative anonymity.

[Spook]

I appreciate the initial feedback.

Indeed, it can be a challenge to "pick out" Soviet smaller-scale units (division & below) when one considers the enormity of the deployed Soviet frontal forces. I guess how it could be rephrased as to how many smaller Soviet units are known to be reasonably documented with long-running combat records -- "glorious" or otherwise.

After all, in playing CMBB, we don't play Soviet corps or armies. We typically play Soviet companies, battalions, & regiments. I just think that some more attention given to such smaller-scale Soviet units -- if possible -- could give some added "balance," or at least serve as future prospects of CMBB operations designed from a Soviet perspective.

[Frunze]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Can you name any partisan leaders outside of Tito?

Can you name any specific partisan actions or discuss them in detail?

It may be a case of their fame preceding their actual deeds. Some historians (not me) would argue their importance was vastly over-rated. Hence their relative anonymity.

Then again, maybe there's been less history written about them because they didn't have reporters and photographers accompanying their units, didn't generate as much military paperwork, and were less likely to write their memoirs...assuming they survived, how much formal education did most of them have?

Because of all that, what sources would historians have to work from, assuming they wanted to write something on them?

Plus all the reasons the East Front generally is obscure in the West.

[SgtMuhammed]

Then to that you have to add the Soviet desire for secrecy that precluded any large publicity campaign until recently. It is also a matter of where the focus of the national mythology is.

In France, the Army was in disgrace after their no show in '40. About the only thing they had to show their commitment to the struggle against Naziism was the resistance. The need to glorify the resistance also grew from the national guilt over their massive collaboration during the war. The result was that the only way to make any claim to being part of the fight was to claim to be part of the resistance. Every year the museums in France bump up the contributions made by the resistance (which were very small until D-day) and within the next decade the story of the Normandy invasions will be one of a small force of Allied forces (mostly Free French) supplying support and weapons to hundreds of thousands of resistance fighters who then expelled the Germans.

In Russia the mythology of WWII was focused on the Red Army and so there was less incentive to claim to be a partisan. Here one must not forget that soldiers who were cut off and became partisans were not welcomed back with open arms and many were arrested and shot for allowing themselves to become cut off in the first place. The safer place to be or to claim to be was with the Red Army. I suspect that there may be a growing willingness now to admit to being a partisan but I don't expect a ground swell as we see in France.

As far as famous divisions, I one must remember that a Soviet Division during the war was about half the size of a comparable American or German one. More public recognition was given to the Corps level and up.

[Thin Red Line]

Originally posted by Sgtgoody:

In France, the Army was in disgrace after their no show in '40. About the only thing they had to show their commitment to the struggle against Naziism was the resistance. The result was that the only way to make any claim to being part of the fight was to claim to be part of the resistance.Every year the museums in France bump up the contributions made by the resistance (which were very small until D-day) and within the next decade the story of the Normandy invasions will be one of a small force of Allied forces (mostly Free French) supplying support and weapons to hundreds of thousands of resistance fighters who then expelled the Germans.

I'm not sure what you are refering to exactly. The French fought in Africa, Italy, France and Germany, only the 2nd Armored Free French Division was involved in the Normandy battle.

[SgtMuhammed]

I'm refering to the fact that nearly every Frenchman from that time claims to have been a member of the resistance. Much the same way that no Germans claim to have ever supported Hitler. Countries tend to promote groups that enhanse their chosen national mythology. It may not be true but people will convince themselves that it is.

[Grisha]

I'll let you all philosophize. I just want to name my favorite Soviet units

Most of my favorite units are mainly tank armies, though they were comparable to western armor corps. So, which tank army is my favorite? Well, ALL of them! And the reason has to do with the tank army commanders who were all excellent. Of course, these tank commanders had different methods, and strengths and weaknesses, but I find it very difficult to make a strong preference for any particular one. </font>

• Katukov, 1st Guards Tank Army</font>
• Rybalko, 3rd Guards Tank Army </font>
• Bogdanov, 2nd Guards Tank Army</font>
• Rotmistrov, 5th Guards Tank Army</font>
• Lelyushenko, 4th Guards Tank Army</font>
• Kravchenko, 6th Guards Tank Army</font>

I also like the 3rd Guards Tank Corps under Panfilov, during their action as mobile group for Rokossovskii's 2nd Belorussian Front during the operation in eastern Pomerania in February 1945. Some smooth work by Panfilov.

[Andreas]

Not already mentioned:

1st Guards Cavalry Corps under Belov, Moscow 1941/42

322nd Rifle Division, part of the spearhead in the L'vov Sandomierz breakthrough 1944.

3rd Mech Corps, Katukov in the Luchessa Valley

4th Tank Brigade, again Katukov at Tula 1941 (I believe this may have morphed into 3rd Mech Corps and then 1st Guards Tank Army at a later stage, but am not sure).

[c3k]

My favorite Soviet unit? Very easy to pick that one. Simply, 3rd squad of 2nd Platoon. Man, did they kick ass!!

Ken "how small can we go?"

[Spook]

Thanks, Andreas & Grisha. Grisha's listing of armies may be "bigger" in scale than what I nominally consider, but then, I can always roll up sleeves and use the referenced armies for seeking information within, later on.

[Andreas]

10th Guards Rifle Division (forgotten the original designation), fighting in the Arctic 1941-45. One of the divisions that stopped Dietl's thrust to the Murmansk railway and then later went on to participate in the Petsamo-Kirkenes operation 1944.

This info from Skalman.nu:

10th GRD

Decorations:

Order of Red Banner x 2

Order of Alexander Nevskiy

Order of Red Star

Honours (IIRC you could only get honours for offensive operations):

Kirkenes

Petsamo

[Crazy]

Originally posted by Sgtgoody:

Here one must not forget that soldiers who were cut off and became partisans were not welcomed back with open arms and many were arrested and shot for allowing themselves to become cut off in the first place.

First of all not cut off but taken prison and then escaped.If you were cut off but managed to escape and rejoin the main group/or escaped lat's say a battalion they weren't shot.Shot were whose who reatreted without hicommanders orders.Like some panzers advance and you leave your possition (you have nothing to kill pz. whith), it was considered as cowards, NOTE that wasn't average and most of russians fought till death.

[Grisha]

Spook,

Don't forget Scott's mention of the 13th Guards Rifle Division. These guys were formed from airborne troops, and their first commander, Rodimtsev, was top-notch. About the 13th GRD, Sharp says, "Based on the performance of the division and its subunits in both attack and defense, 13th Guards Rifle Division just may have been the best rifle division in the Soviet Army in World War II ... The division consistently showed a combination of initiative, aggressiveness, and steadiness that matched the best in any army."

[Andreas]

Yeah, I would not want to mess with anyone who has 'Transsylvania' in their battle honours

From Skalman.nu, 13th GRD:

Awards

Order of Lenin

Order of Red Banner x 2

Order of Suvorov

Order of Kutuzov

Honour titles

Poltava

Silesia

Transylvania

[manchildstein (ii)]

i liked the soviet 8th mechanized in june of '41

http://www.battlefield.ru/t34_76_3.html

http://fisherts.home.mindspring.com/skirmishcampaigns/ukraine/sample.htm

http://www.battlefield.ru/t35.html

[Gpig]

Speaking of Rodmitsev's 13th Division . . . Wasn't that division practically completely destroyed (over and over) during the siege of Stalingrad?

They made it across the Volga in the nick of time to aid the 62nd in the early days of the battle for stalingrad. But in doing so, they were smashed to pieces, no?

Also, I wonder if a unit that gets such accolades, maintains a high "spirit" or morale amongst newcomers.

For instance, if a green recruit got shipped to a vanilla infantry division with no former glory . . . would he perform less well than a similar recruit sent to a "famous" unit? A unit that has a valiant history, but has already been turned over (manpower-wise) two or three times?

Kind of like Easy company, I guess. They had something like 200% casualties over the course of WWII, but still fielded a competent unit towards the end of the war.

Hmmmm . . .

Gpig

[Michael Dorosh]

Gpig, I keep hearing that we need to keep the Regimental system in place in Canada (ie famous unit names) because it improves fighting ability.

But then I look at World War One, and how good the CEF was - despite the fact that they were given numbers only, not regiental designations.

Training, and the individual personalities, are what contribute to combat fighting power. Incidentals like the name of the unit are just that - incidental. If the famous First of Foot can break and run at Hong Kong, or a bunch of no-name battalions could take Vimy Ridge, then I don't see what difference a name makes.

[Spook]

Originally posted by Grisha:

Spook,

Don't forget Scott's mention of the 13th Guards Rifle Division. These guys were formed from airborne troops, and their first commander, Rodimtsev, was top-notch. About the 13th GRD, Sharp says, "Based on the performance of the division and its subunits in both attack and defense, 13th Guards Rifle Division just may have been the best rifle division in the Soviet Army in World War II ... The division consistently showed a combination of initiative, aggressiveness, and steadiness that matched the best in any army."

I did take mental note of Scott's recommendation, Grisha, thanks. I had actually heard of that unit too in some generic Stalingrad references. Andreas's follow-up, however, helps make note of the battle honors of the 13th beyond just the Stalingrad fighting.

Though, if per Gpig's note, the 13th was repeatedly "spent" in Stalingrad, one from within might have named that unit the "unlucky 13th"?

[Gpig]

I'll buy that for a dollar.

It would seem at first glance that joining up with an "elite" unit would puff up a persons confidence. But once actually in amongst the members of the unit, the morale becomes much more of a personal thing.

I suppose that if your parent unit was from Valhalla itself but your platoon leader looked like Marty Feldman though not as funny, your confidence might be shaken when put to the test.

Gpig

P.S. Would you say that there was a difference amongst the mental "make-up" of soilders between WWI and WWII? What I mean is that soilders might not have felt they were differences amongst units in WWI as they were all together in the "GREAT" war. THey were all marching for the homeland and with sense of honor and old-world dedication?

Whereas in WWII, things had changed somewhat for the average soilder. It just seems that that old sense of overwhelming duty had dissapated somewhat from war to war. It had become more of a technical/professional act, rather than a test of ones loyalty and manhood. A right of passage or somefink.

??

Gpig

[Michael Dorosh]

In either case, Gpig, the soldiers fought for the buddies they had in their platoon.