Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)

[undead reindeer cavalry]

excellent stuff Hetzer. perhaps one day we will get the actual count of German kill claims

so we have thus far 3267 kill claims, which would equal about 3% of all Soviet tank losses.

here are some additional Soviet stats from the older thread, in which they were used in order to prove the impossibility of German claims.

for Soviet 1st Tank Army of the Voronezh Front, during 5-20 July 1943, the irreversible combat losses from enemy aviation were 37 tanks. so in this occasion a tank army lost 2.47 tanks per operational day to German aviation.

for entire central front from July to August 1943 187 tanks and assault guns, or 6.3% of all losses, were to enemy aviation.

it seems Soviet losses to German air arm were a bit higher than i thought.

there must still be tons of German kill claims uncounted, because at the moment Soviet reported losses are two times higher than German kill claims.

[undead reindeer cavalry]

excellent stuff Hetzer. perhaps one day we will get the actual count of German kill claims

so we have thus far 3267 kill claims, which would equal about 3% of all Soviet tank losses.

here are some additional Soviet stats from the older thread, in which they were used in order to prove the impossibility of German claims.

for Soviet 1st Tank Army of the Voronezh Front, during 5-20 July 1943, the irreversible combat losses from enemy aviation were 37 tanks. so in this occasion a tank army lost 2.47 tanks per operational day to German aviation.

for entire central front from July to August 1943 187 tanks and assault guns, or 6.3% of all losses, were to enemy aviation.

it seems Soviet losses to German air arm were a bit higher than i thought.

there must still be tons of German kill claims uncounted, because at the moment Soviet reported losses are two times higher than German kill claims.

[ParaBellum]

Here's a link to a YouTube vid showing Ju-87-Gs attacking soviet landing crafts with 37mm cannons. Quality is, unfortunately, not very good. Quite a few misses but also a couple of what looks like direct hits.

What surprises me is that the Stuka pilots are attacking the ships from the side, and not from the front/rear.

[ParaBellum]

Here's a link to a YouTube vid showing Ju-87-Gs attacking soviet landing crafts with 37mm cannons. Quality is, unfortunately, not very good. Quite a few misses but also a couple of what looks like direct hits.

What surprises me is that the Stuka pilots are attacking the ships from the side, and not from the front/rear.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

it seems Soviet losses to German air arm were a bit higher than i thought.

Air arm is not the same as Ju 87 though.

All the best

Andreas

[Andreas]

Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

it seems Soviet losses to German air arm were a bit higher than i thought.

Air arm is not the same as Ju 87 though.

All the best

Andreas

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

it seems Soviet losses to German air arm were a bit higher than i thought.

Air arm is not the same as Ju 87 though.</font>

[undead reindeer cavalry]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by undead reindeer cavalry:

it seems Soviet losses to German air arm were a bit higher than i thought.

Air arm is not the same as Ju 87 though.</font>

[Andreas]

Remember the 50% haircut. As far as the Germans were concerned, the 3,000 were not claims, but awards.

There were also other ground attack planes, most notably the Hs 129, but also FW 190 Jabos, and I would think that ordinary bombing would also account for a good number.

All the best

Andreas

[Andreas]

Remember the 50% haircut. As far as the Germans were concerned, the 3,000 were not claims, but awards.

There were also other ground attack planes, most notably the Hs 129, but also FW 190 Jabos, and I would think that ordinary bombing would also account for a good number.

All the best

Andreas

[Hetzer38]

Undead reindeer cavalry, I've updated the "list" again, now it's 4363 tanks...

Of the 78 listed pilots, the majority are Sturzkampf- (St.G.) or Schlachtgeschwader (SG) - pilots. Those 10 pilots who flew for 10.(Pz)-Staffeln were dedicated anti-tank flyboys.

Then there are some Zerstörer- (ZG) and Kampfgeschwader (KG) pilots and a single fighter-only-jockey...

(Hptm. Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert- RK 01/07/42 - JG 77, JG 27, JG 7 - 10 tanks / 174 aircraft).

ParaBellum, great video! Thank you very much for sharing!

It's sad that the quality is so poor...

Cheers, Hetzer.

[ March 06, 2007, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Hetzer38]

Undead reindeer cavalry, I've updated the "list" again, now it's 4363 tanks...

Of the 78 listed pilots, the majority are Sturzkampf- (St.G.) or Schlachtgeschwader (SG) - pilots. Those 10 pilots who flew for 10.(Pz)-Staffeln were dedicated anti-tank flyboys.

Then there are some Zerstörer- (ZG) and Kampfgeschwader (KG) pilots and a single fighter-only-jockey...

(Hptm. Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert- RK 01/07/42 - JG 77, JG 27, JG 7 - 10 tanks / 174 aircraft).

ParaBellum, great video! Thank you very much for sharing!

It's sad that the quality is so poor...

Cheers, Hetzer.

[ March 06, 2007, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I would think that ordinary bombing would also account for a good number.

Especially when you count in all the T-26's, SU-76's and other lighties.

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Andreas:

I would think that ordinary bombing would also account for a good number.

Especially when you count in all the T-26's, SU-76's and other lighties.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

Here's a link to a YouTube vid showing Ju-87-Gs attacking soviet landing crafts with 37mm cannons. Quality is, unfortunately, not very good. Quite a few misses but also a couple of what looks like direct hits.

What surprises me is that the Stuka pilots are attacking the ships from the side, and not from the front/rear.

How do you know those are really manned Soviet craft and not simply something set up miles behind the lines or even back in Germany and filmed specifically as propaganda?

There is a nice picture in Squadron-Signal's GERMAN INFANTRY IN ACTION showing Russian infantrymen storming past a burning German PzKpfw IV, with a Soviet press dude taking pictures. The whole thing was naturally staged. Also some nice pictures in an old issue of AFTER THE BATTLE showing British troops somewhere in Italy advancing at the double with fixed bayonets over rubblestrewn ground - and another shot in the same series showing them running the other way with bayonets fixed so that the photographer could pick the angle he liked best.

I suspect the majority of "combat" footage of the era was staged. And in the most photogenic manner possible - ie if the ships show up better on film being bombed from the side, guess how a PK cameraman would have set up the sequence?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

Here's a link to a YouTube vid showing Ju-87-Gs attacking soviet landing crafts with 37mm cannons. Quality is, unfortunately, not very good. Quite a few misses but also a couple of what looks like direct hits.

What surprises me is that the Stuka pilots are attacking the ships from the side, and not from the front/rear.

How do you know those are really manned Soviet craft and not simply something set up miles behind the lines or even back in Germany and filmed specifically as propaganda?

There is a nice picture in Squadron-Signal's GERMAN INFANTRY IN ACTION showing Russian infantrymen storming past a burning German PzKpfw IV, with a Soviet press dude taking pictures. The whole thing was naturally staged. Also some nice pictures in an old issue of AFTER THE BATTLE showing British troops somewhere in Italy advancing at the double with fixed bayonets over rubblestrewn ground - and another shot in the same series showing them running the other way with bayonets fixed so that the photographer could pick the angle he liked best.

I suspect the majority of "combat" footage of the era was staged. And in the most photogenic manner possible - ie if the ships show up better on film being bombed from the side, guess how a PK cameraman would have set up the sequence?

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

How do you know those are really manned Soviet craft and not simply something set up miles behind the lines or even back in Germany and filmed specifically as propaganda?

1.) Because they seem to miss their targets quite a lot.

2.) It's guncam footage. Probably easier to just clip together some action-packed 'real' footage than setting up a fake situation back in Germany for propaganda purposes.

3.) Ju-87-Gs hunting down soviet landing craft in the Kuban/Kerch area is quite well documented in a number of sources.

4.) It actually doesn't matter if they are soviet craft or german target drones. I mainly posted the link to show the 37mm guns in action. If I had found a video called "Ju-87-Gs firing their guns on targets during training in Germany" I would've posted that.

[ March 06, 2007, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[ParaBellum]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

How do you know those are really manned Soviet craft and not simply something set up miles behind the lines or even back in Germany and filmed specifically as propaganda?

1.) Because they seem to miss their targets quite a lot.

2.) It's guncam footage. Probably easier to just clip together some action-packed 'real' footage than setting up a fake situation back in Germany for propaganda purposes.

3.) Ju-87-Gs hunting down soviet landing craft in the Kuban/Kerch area is quite well documented in a number of sources.

4.) It actually doesn't matter if they are soviet craft or german target drones. I mainly posted the link to show the 37mm guns in action. If I had found a video called "Ju-87-Gs firing their guns on targets during training in Germany" I would've posted that.

[ March 06, 2007, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[Hetzer38]

Some more info on Kronstadt, 1941...

Above: A battleship becomes a target. At Kronstadt naval base, near Leningrad, lurked the Soviet Baltic fleet with two battleships and a host of lesser vessels. In a series of heavy dive-bombing attacks, mounted between 21 and 24 September 1941, one of the larger vessels, the Marat, had her bows blown off. The other battleship, Oktyabrskaya Revolutsia (23,000 tons), was heavily damaged by a series of direct hits from the Stukas of the I. and III./St.G. 2 "Immelmann" under Major Oskar Dinort. Here the Oktyabrskaya Revolutsia is seen from the attacking dive-bombers, surrounded by the splashes of near-misses and with the smoke of one direct hit forward being joined by a second hit on the port side aft. In all, she was hit by six medium-sized bombs. She had to be towed to Leningrad to be repaired. In further attacks on 4 April, 1942, an assault by sixty-two Ju87s from the III./St.G.1 and the II./St.G.2 claimed to have hit her again four times. The Stukas carried special 1000kg bombs, designed to penetrate battleship armour, on these missions. (Franz Selinger)

[from:

Stukas over the Steppe - The Blitzkrieg in the East, 1941-1945, by Peter C. Smith]

Cheers, Hetzer38.

[ March 06, 2007, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Hetzer38]

Some more info on Kronstadt, 1941...

Above: A battleship becomes a target. At Kronstadt naval base, near Leningrad, lurked the Soviet Baltic fleet with two battleships and a host of lesser vessels. In a series of heavy dive-bombing attacks, mounted between 21 and 24 September 1941, one of the larger vessels, the Marat, had her bows blown off. The other battleship, Oktyabrskaya Revolutsia (23,000 tons), was heavily damaged by a series of direct hits from the Stukas of the I. and III./St.G. 2 "Immelmann" under Major Oskar Dinort. Here the Oktyabrskaya Revolutsia is seen from the attacking dive-bombers, surrounded by the splashes of near-misses and with the smoke of one direct hit forward being joined by a second hit on the port side aft. In all, she was hit by six medium-sized bombs. She had to be towed to Leningrad to be repaired. In further attacks on 4 April, 1942, an assault by sixty-two Ju87s from the III./St.G.1 and the II./St.G.2 claimed to have hit her again four times. The Stukas carried special 1000kg bombs, designed to penetrate battleship armour, on these missions. (Franz Selinger)

[from:

Stukas over the Steppe - The Blitzkrieg in the East, 1941-1945, by Peter C. Smith]

Cheers, Hetzer38.

[ March 06, 2007, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[John Kettler]

ParaBellum,

Commiserations on the film quality, but useful nevertheless! It appears that the guns are being salvo fired, with one or two salvos per attack run, though I did see one case in which it looked as though he was ranging in with individual shots before switching to salvo mode.

Hetzer38,

You may not realize it, but you have just uncovered what I believe to be a remarkable bit of ordnance groggery, in the form of Herr Major Oskar

Dinort. If I'm right, he is the father of the Dinort rod, a fuze extender used by the Germans to get maximum effect against unhardened ground targets by preventing blast and frag attentuation via partial bomb burial.

http://www.wwiibythebook.com/index2.htm?/Germany/Air/Bombs/German%20Aircraft%20Bombs.htm&2

This confirms my hunch was correct.

http://home.freeuk.com/johndillon/ju87.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

Regards,

John Kettler

[ March 06, 2007, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[John Kettler]

ParaBellum,

Commiserations on the film quality, but useful nevertheless! It appears that the guns are being salvo fired, with one or two salvos per attack run, though I did see one case in which it looked as though he was ranging in with individual shots before switching to salvo mode.

Hetzer38,

You may not realize it, but you have just uncovered what I believe to be a remarkable bit of ordnance groggery, in the form of Herr Major Oskar

Dinort. If I'm right, he is the father of the Dinort rod, a fuze extender used by the Germans to get maximum effect against unhardened ground targets by preventing blast and frag attentuation via partial bomb burial.

http://www.wwiibythebook.com/index2.htm?/Germany/Air/Bombs/German%20Aircraft%20Bombs.htm&2

This confirms my hunch was correct.

http://home.freeuk.com/johndillon/ju87.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

Regards,

John Kettler

[ March 06, 2007, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: John Kettler ]

[Guest Mike]

Looks to me like those Stukas were getting 3 shots per attack - and 4 at least once.

[Guest Mike]

Looks to me like those Stukas were getting 3 shots per attack - and 4 at least once.

[Hetzer38]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hetzer38:

Where have all the Ju87G gun-camera films gone?

(They did have gun-cameras aboard, didn't they? Wouldn't that explain how some "Luftwaffe-eyewitnesses-only-claims" were "confirmed", by just viewing the "tape"?)

...BTW "some", does that mean, one, two, or thousands? How do you verify a kill from watching a tape?

... </font>