Ju-87/G Stuka tankbuster info (cross post fm CMAK)

[Michael Dorosh]

Since we're quoting Rudel's book now, let me provide some quotes for Kettler.

English language edition, Bantam paperback, ISBN 0-553-12304-1 dated 1979 (reprint of 1958 version).

pp.108-109 - "Now we fly back and take a closer look at the tanks - they are all T34s - Russians...When they are being attacked the tanks dodge round the buildings, and in this way are quickly out of our sights. I hit four of them..." The next para - "I go out once more...After a long search I spot two tanks in the western part of the town and knock them out."

Hits on six tanks, and two he identifies as KOs all in two sorties.

p.134 - "There is a Russian speaking officer in my squadron who tunes in his wireless set to their wave length...The Soviets (also) frequently try to give us target alterations during flight...These pretend corrections are issued in fluent German, but we very soon see through this trick and once I am wise to it if ever I receieve one of these fake corretions when in the air, I invariably come down to make sure that the amended target is really an enemy objective. Often we hear a warning shout: "Cancel attack. Target occupied by our own troops." The speaker is, needless to say, a Russian. His last words are then usually drowned by the noise of our bombs. We get many a good laugh when we overhear the ground control cursing the Russian fighters....We have long been familiar with the bad morale of the bulk of the Red fighter pilots; only a few crack units are an exception to this rule."

Nothing inherently "wrong" about this, though the laughter kind of belies any sense of tragedy - which is lacking through the whole book, except when a German pilot who has the Knight's Cross is killed. p.116 - "Three of my friends who have been as inseperable as a four leaved clover, all three decorated with the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, lay down their lives for their country. We are stunned by their loss as a mean and furtive blow." Furtive? They were shot down by flak.

About the death of his rear gunner swimming the Dniester (p.140) - "He was very heavy and the strain would have been too much for almost any one. Now I lie sprawled on the bank...limp...exhausted (ellipses in original)and somewhere a deep-seated misery for my friend Henschel. A moment later we say a Paternoster for our comrade."

How touching. If only he had been as physically fit as Rudel, but, as he points out, few were. But, the war awaits! A moment's reflection, a Paternoster or two, and back at the Reds before you can hum ich hatt einen Kameraden! He is mentioned once more on p.153 - only because he was "our best gunner with a credit of 1200 operational sorties." That he was a mother's son is apparently irrelevant...

Again, nothing wrong with this, but the lack of humanity or warmth is telling. If you can't believe his emotions, how can you believe his outrageous kill claims?

p.203 - "The Russian hordes move fast, almost exclusively by night." Frigging cheaters. Never mind the German Army in Normandy was reduced to nighttime movement by Allied air superiority, Later on in the same para - "At special focal points the names of crack formations appear: infantry regiments with great traditions, armoured divisions, SS formations, all old acquaintances of ours and friends with whome we have shared the hardships of the arduous years in Russia. They love and esteem their Stukas and we feel the same." LOL - that last bit has to be unintentional - doesn't it? "They love we Stukas and we love ourselves too!" But the greater implication is that the Russians are a mob - no proud regiments or crack formations or "great traditions". Those are reserved for pure Germans...

[ March 11, 2007, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Since we're quoting Rudel's book now, let me provide some quotes for Kettler.

English language edition, Bantam paperback, ISBN 0-553-12304-1 dated 1979 (reprint of 1958 version).

pp.108-109 - "Now we fly back and take a closer look at the tanks - they are all T34s - Russians...When they are being attacked the tanks dodge round the buildings, and in this way are quickly out of our sights. I hit four of them..." The next para - "I go out once more...After a long search I spot two tanks in the western part of the town and knock them out."

Hits on six tanks, and two he identifies as KOs all in two sorties.

p.134 - "There is a Russian speaking officer in my squadron who tunes in his wireless set to their wave length...The Soviets (also) frequently try to give us target alterations during flight...These pretend corrections are issued in fluent German, but we very soon see through this trick and once I am wise to it if ever I receieve one of these fake corretions when in the air, I invariably come down to make sure that the amended target is really an enemy objective. Often we hear a warning shout: "Cancel attack. Target occupied by our own troops." The speaker is, needless to say, a Russian. His last words are then usually drowned by the noise of our bombs. We get many a good laugh when we overhear the ground control cursing the Russian fighters....We have long been familiar with the bad morale of the bulk of the Red fighter pilots; only a few crack units are an exception to this rule."

Nothing inherently "wrong" about this, though the laughter kind of belies any sense of tragedy - which is lacking through the whole book, except when a German pilot who has the Knight's Cross is killed. p.116 - "Three of my friends who have been as inseperable as a four leaved clover, all three decorated with the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, lay down their lives for their country. We are stunned by their loss as a mean and furtive blow." Furtive? They were shot down by flak.

About the death of his rear gunner swimming the Dniester (p.140) - "He was very heavy and the strain would have been too much for almost any one. Now I lie sprawled on the bank...limp...exhausted (ellipses in original)and somewhere a deep-seated misery for my friend Henschel. A moment later we say a Paternoster for our comrade."

How touching. If only he had been as physically fit as Rudel, but, as he points out, few were. But, the war awaits! A moment's reflection, a Paternoster or two, and back at the Reds before you can hum ich hatt einen Kameraden! He is mentioned once more on p.153 - only because he was "our best gunner with a credit of 1200 operational sorties." That he was a mother's son is apparently irrelevant...

Again, nothing wrong with this, but the lack of humanity or warmth is telling. If you can't believe his emotions, how can you believe his outrageous kill claims?

p.203 - "The Russian hordes move fast, almost exclusively by night." Frigging cheaters. Never mind the German Army in Normandy was reduced to nighttime movement by Allied air superiority, Later on in the same para - "At special focal points the names of crack formations appear: infantry regiments with great traditions, armoured divisions, SS formations, all old acquaintances of ours and friends with whome we have shared the hardships of the arduous years in Russia. They love and esteem their Stukas and we feel the same." LOL - that last bit has to be unintentional - doesn't it? "They love we Stukas and we love ourselves too!" But the greater implication is that the Russians are a mob - no proud regiments or crack formations or "great traditions". Those are reserved for pure Germans...

[ March 11, 2007, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Michael Dorosh]

p.271 - The shock of the news that the Head of State and Supreme Commander of the armed forces of the Reich is dead has a stunning effect upon the troops. But the Red hordes are devastating our country and therefore we must fight on. We shall only lay down our arms when our leaders give the order. This is our plain duty according to our military oath, it is our plain duty in view of the terrible fate which threatens us if we surrender unconditionally as the enemy insists. It is our plain duty also to the destiny which has placed us geographically in the heart of Europe and which we have obeyed for centuries: to be the bulwark of Europe against the East. Whether or not Europe understands or likes the role which fate has thrust upon us, or whether her attitude is one of fatal indifference or even of hostility does not alter by one iota our European duty. We are determined to be able to hold our heads high when the history of our continent, and particularly of the dangerous times ahead, is written.

In other words, the stupid fascist is too brainwashed to give up a couple of days early - even with Hitler dead - in order to spare innocent lives in a war that is already lost. As far as I can tell, holding out from April 30 to May 7 did not alter the unconditional surrender demands of the Allies. "I was ordered to do it, and I did it." Hoess said the same of his duties at Auschwitz, which included the gassing and burning of 2.5 million human beings.

p.284 - "With a venomous glance at us, the officer making out his report of (my) interrogation comments when I have had my say: "Typical Nazi officer." Why one is a typical Nazi officer when one is merely telling the truth is not quite clear to me. Are these gentlemen aware that we have never fought for a political party, but only for Germany? In this belief also millions of our comrades have died. My assertion that they will one day be sorry that in destroying us they have demolished the bastion against Bolshevism they interpret as propaganda and refuse to believe it."

Reminds me of the fictional interpretation of Julius Streicher's Nuremberg trials testimony in that Alec Baldwin movie. The prosecutor says words to the effect of "In your newspaper you say that the Jews are a nation of bloodsuckers and parasites. Don't you think that is preaching race hatred?"

Streicher replies "No, I do not think it is preaching race hatred." (Pounds the desk) "IT IS SIMPLY A STATEMENT OF FACT!"

p. 285 - upon having a US officer inspect his Golden Oakleaves, Swords and Diamonds to the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross - "How many lives must that have cost." Rudel: "When I explain to him that I earned it in Russia he leaves us, considerably relieved."

[ March 11, 2007, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Michael Dorosh]

p.271 - The shock of the news that the Head of State and Supreme Commander of the armed forces of the Reich is dead has a stunning effect upon the troops. But the Red hordes are devastating our country and therefore we must fight on. We shall only lay down our arms when our leaders give the order. This is our plain duty according to our military oath, it is our plain duty in view of the terrible fate which threatens us if we surrender unconditionally as the enemy insists. It is our plain duty also to the destiny which has placed us geographically in the heart of Europe and which we have obeyed for centuries: to be the bulwark of Europe against the East. Whether or not Europe understands or likes the role which fate has thrust upon us, or whether her attitude is one of fatal indifference or even of hostility does not alter by one iota our European duty. We are determined to be able to hold our heads high when the history of our continent, and particularly of the dangerous times ahead, is written.

In other words, the stupid fascist is too brainwashed to give up a couple of days early - even with Hitler dead - in order to spare innocent lives in a war that is already lost. As far as I can tell, holding out from April 30 to May 7 did not alter the unconditional surrender demands of the Allies. "I was ordered to do it, and I did it." Hoess said the same of his duties at Auschwitz, which included the gassing and burning of 2.5 million human beings.

p.284 - "With a venomous glance at us, the officer making out his report of (my) interrogation comments when I have had my say: "Typical Nazi officer." Why one is a typical Nazi officer when one is merely telling the truth is not quite clear to me. Are these gentlemen aware that we have never fought for a political party, but only for Germany? In this belief also millions of our comrades have died. My assertion that they will one day be sorry that in destroying us they have demolished the bastion against Bolshevism they interpret as propaganda and refuse to believe it."

Reminds me of the fictional interpretation of Julius Streicher's Nuremberg trials testimony in that Alec Baldwin movie. The prosecutor says words to the effect of "In your newspaper you say that the Jews are a nation of bloodsuckers and parasites. Don't you think that is preaching race hatred?"

Streicher replies "No, I do not think it is preaching race hatred." (Pounds the desk) "IT IS SIMPLY A STATEMENT OF FACT!"

p. 285 - upon having a US officer inspect his Golden Oakleaves, Swords and Diamonds to the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross - "How many lives must that have cost." Rudel: "When I explain to him that I earned it in Russia he leaves us, considerably relieved."

[ March 11, 2007, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Panzer_M 2.0]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

There is no possibility that there weer KV-2's in front line service in 1943. Productio was stopped in 1941, the type had unique ammunition requirements and only 334 were built.

It is nothing like a Pz-2 or the T-40 that was still in service in Leningrad in 1944 - it requires unique ammunition, it is unreliable, it is heavy so requires transporters.

Wiki says that 2 KV-2's were used by the Finns through the war and 1 was used by hte Germans vs US troops in 1945 - maybe he attacked one of those?

Pz-3's were still being BUILT in 1943 - their use at Kursk is not surprising in the least, while Pz 2's were used as training and recce tanks - the last was BUILT in 1944!! One or more still working in 1945 is not surprising either.

Krupp had a KV II defending it's factory in 1945.

[Panzer_M 2.0]

Originally posted by Stalin's Organist:

There is no possibility that there weer KV-2's in front line service in 1943. Productio was stopped in 1941, the type had unique ammunition requirements and only 334 were built.

It is nothing like a Pz-2 or the T-40 that was still in service in Leningrad in 1944 - it requires unique ammunition, it is unreliable, it is heavy so requires transporters.

Wiki says that 2 KV-2's were used by the Finns through the war and 1 was used by hte Germans vs US troops in 1945 - maybe he attacked one of those?

Pz-3's were still being BUILT in 1943 - their use at Kursk is not surprising in the least, while Pz 2's were used as training and recce tanks - the last was BUILT in 1944!! One or more still working in 1945 is not surprising either.

Krupp had a KV II defending it's factory in 1945.

[Panzer_M 2.0]

pilots miss ID alot. Planes, ground objects.

The KV II could have been a Kv I or it could have been a cow..who knows.

[Panzer_M 2.0]

pilots miss ID alot. Planes, ground objects.

The KV II could have been a Kv I or it could have been a cow..who knows.

[Cuirassier]

When will this thread end? lol

Btw, nice quotes and interpretations Dorosh. They add a much needed level of sanity and perspective to this discussion.

[Cuirassier]

When will this thread end? lol

Btw, nice quotes and interpretations Dorosh. They add a much needed level of sanity and perspective to this discussion.

[John Kettler]

Michael Dorosh,

My comments of the absence of Hitler and Nazi Party glorification in Rudel's account pertained specifically and solely to the quoted passage about the attack on the Marat. As noted before, I haven't read STUKA PILOT in a very long time. Further, I have repeatedly identified the man's Nazi beliefs via such modifiers as "unrepentant" and "dyed in the wool." This automatically means that he has these views and is wholly unapologetic for having them. Just so we're clear, I was making a comment on ONE passage, NOT a general observation on his entire book.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Michael Dorosh,

My comments of the absence of Hitler and Nazi Party glorification in Rudel's account pertained specifically and solely to the quoted passage about the attack on the Marat. As noted before, I haven't read STUKA PILOT in a very long time. Further, I have repeatedly identified the man's Nazi beliefs via such modifiers as "unrepentant" and "dyed in the wool." This automatically means that he has these views and is wholly unapologetic for having them. Just so we're clear, I was making a comment on ONE passage, NOT a general observation on his entire book.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Dorosh]

Ah, clear, but I thought it might also be instructive and interesting to others, certainly with regards to the veracity of any of the claims in that book, including the one to which you directed your comments.

[Michael Dorosh]

Ah, clear, but I thought it might also be instructive and interesting to others, certainly with regards to the veracity of any of the claims in that book, including the one to which you directed your comments.

[Hetzer38]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hetzer38:

"Twelve hundred feet high rises the cloud of the dying Marat"

Well, that must have been like the dying scene performed by Peewee Herrmann in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", considering that it took until 1953 for Marat to be taken out of service. Dying for 12 years...

</font>

[Hetzer38]

Originally posted by Andreas:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hetzer38:

"Twelve hundred feet high rises the cloud of the dying Marat"

Well, that must have been like the dying scene performed by Peewee Herrmann in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", considering that it took until 1953 for Marat to be taken out of service. Dying for 12 years...

</font>

[Hetzer38]

Yesterday, I have updated the "list" by including the numbers of Feind-Flüge (FF=combat missions) given in Dive Bomber and Ground-Attack Aces.

(...And for discussing some additional mumbers...)

These thirty Stuka pilots (...well, some didn't fly the Ju87 exclusivly...) claim to have knocked-out 2049 tanks in 26656 FF...

Anton Hübsch - RK 08/08/44 - Oberfeldwebel-2./SG 2 - 1060FF - +120 tanks...

Gerhard Stüdemann - EL 28/03/45 - Hauptmann-9./St.G 77 -996FF - 117 tanks

Alois Wosnitza - RK 26/02/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-SG 77 - 1217FF - 104 tanks

Hendrik Stahl - EL 24/05/44 -- Hauptmann-8./ SG 2 - +1000FF - +100 tanks

Jakob Jenster - RK 29/02/44 -- Leutnant-t.G1,St.G2 - 960FF - 100 tanks

Wilhelm Joswig - RK 29/02/44 - Oberleutnant-9./St.G2 - 820FF - 88 tanks

Wilhelm Noller - RK 06/04(44 - Leutnant-2./ SG 2 - 1058FF - 86 tanks

Hans Ludwig - RK 08/08/44 -- Feldwebel-10. (Pz) / SG 2 -- + 19.01.1945 - 750FF - 85 tanks

Heinz Edhofer - RK 30/11/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G2,SG2 - 600FF - KIA 01.04.1945 - 84 tanks

Siegfried Fischer - RK 28/02/45 15 - Oberfeldwebel-StG1,SG1 - 713FF - POW - 80 tanks

Theodor Nordmann - EL 16/03/43 - Major-II./SG1 - +1111FF - 80 tanks

Kurt Plenzat - EL 24/01/45 - Leutnant-2./SG2 - 1.234FF - ~80 tanks

Hans-Joachim Jäschke - RK26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-4./SG1 - +553FF - 78 tanks

Wilhelm Bromen - RK 16/04/43 - Oberleutnant-7 4/StG 2, SG 151, I(Pz)/SG 9 - 965FF - 76 tanks

Kurt Lau - RK 06/04/44 - Hauptmann-1./St.G 2 - POW - 897FF - ~75 tanks

Rainer Nossek - RK 29/10/44 - Oberleutnant-StG 2, SG 2, SG 3, SG 9 - ~800FF - +73 tanks

Gustav Schubert - EL 24/10/44 - Oberleutnant-I/StG 1, III/StG 1, 9/SG - 1.089FF +70 tanks

Johann Klaus - RK 26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-StG 1, SG 1 - 812FF +65 tanks

Erwin-Peter Diekwisch - RK 15/10/42 - Hauptmann-9/StG 1, III/StG 1, I/SG 5, III/KG 200 - 934FF - 64 tanks

Andreas Kuffner - EL 20/12/44 - Hauptmann-10.(Pz.)/SG 3 - +900FF - 60 tanks

Martin Möbus - EL 27/04/44 - Major-I/StG1, III/StG 1, I./StG 5 - +800FF - 60 tanks

Herbert Bauer - EL 30/09/44 - Hauptmann-I./SG2 - 1071FF - 51 tanks

Egon Stoll-Berberich - RK 29/02/44 - Hauptmann-St.G. 2, JG 51, St.G. 1, SG 151 -734FF - +50 tanks

Josef Huber - RK 20/07/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-SG6 - 721FF - 46 tanks

Hans Luhr - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G77,St.G102 - ~850FF - + 20.09.1944 - 33 tanks

Adolf Weiß - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SG 151 - 869FF -+32 tanks

Ernst Orzegowski - RK 14/01/45 - Feldwebel-SG77,SG10 - 682FF - 31 tanks

Hans Steinwachs - RK 05/02/44 -- Hauptmann-St.G1,SG1,SG151 - ~600FF - MIA - 31 tanks

Peter Gaßmann - RK 25/05/1942 - Major-III./SG 1 - +800FF - 24 tanks

Alwin Boerst - EL 28/11/42 - Major-I./SG2 - 1060FF - 6 tanks

Cheers, Hetzer.

[ March 14, 2007, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Hetzer38]

Yesterday, I have updated the "list" by including the numbers of Feind-Flüge (FF=combat missions) given in Dive Bomber and Ground-Attack Aces.

(...And for discussing some additional mumbers...)

These thirty Stuka pilots (...well, some didn't fly the Ju87 exclusivly...) claim to have knocked-out 2049 tanks in 26656 FF...

Anton Hübsch - RK 08/08/44 - Oberfeldwebel-2./SG 2 - 1060FF - +120 tanks...

Gerhard Stüdemann - EL 28/03/45 - Hauptmann-9./St.G 77 -996FF - 117 tanks

Alois Wosnitza - RK 26/02/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-SG 77 - 1217FF - 104 tanks

Hendrik Stahl - EL 24/05/44 -- Hauptmann-8./ SG 2 - +1000FF - +100 tanks

Jakob Jenster - RK 29/02/44 -- Leutnant-t.G1,St.G2 - 960FF - 100 tanks

Wilhelm Joswig - RK 29/02/44 - Oberleutnant-9./St.G2 - 820FF - 88 tanks

Wilhelm Noller - RK 06/04(44 - Leutnant-2./ SG 2 - 1058FF - 86 tanks

Hans Ludwig - RK 08/08/44 -- Feldwebel-10. (Pz) / SG 2 -- + 19.01.1945 - 750FF - 85 tanks

Heinz Edhofer - RK 30/11/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G2,SG2 - 600FF - KIA 01.04.1945 - 84 tanks

Siegfried Fischer - RK 28/02/45 15 - Oberfeldwebel-StG1,SG1 - 713FF - POW - 80 tanks

Theodor Nordmann - EL 16/03/43 - Major-II./SG1 - +1111FF - 80 tanks

Kurt Plenzat - EL 24/01/45 - Leutnant-2./SG2 - 1.234FF - ~80 tanks

Hans-Joachim Jäschke - RK26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-4./SG1 - +553FF - 78 tanks

Wilhelm Bromen - RK 16/04/43 - Oberleutnant-7 4/StG 2, SG 151, I(Pz)/SG 9 - 965FF - 76 tanks

Kurt Lau - RK 06/04/44 - Hauptmann-1./St.G 2 - POW - 897FF - ~75 tanks

Rainer Nossek - RK 29/10/44 - Oberleutnant-StG 2, SG 2, SG 3, SG 9 - ~800FF - +73 tanks

Gustav Schubert - EL 24/10/44 - Oberleutnant-I/StG 1, III/StG 1, 9/SG - 1.089FF +70 tanks

Johann Klaus - RK 26/03/44 - Oberleutnant-StG 1, SG 1 - 812FF +65 tanks

Erwin-Peter Diekwisch - RK 15/10/42 - Hauptmann-9/StG 1, III/StG 1, I/SG 5, III/KG 200 - 934FF - 64 tanks

Andreas Kuffner - EL 20/12/44 - Hauptmann-10.(Pz.)/SG 3 - +900FF - 60 tanks

Martin Möbus - EL 27/04/44 - Major-I/StG1, III/StG 1, I./StG 5 - +800FF - 60 tanks

Herbert Bauer - EL 30/09/44 - Hauptmann-I./SG2 - 1071FF - 51 tanks

Egon Stoll-Berberich - RK 29/02/44 - Hauptmann-St.G. 2, JG 51, St.G. 1, SG 151 -734FF - +50 tanks

Josef Huber - RK 20/07/44 -- Oberfeldwebel-SG6 - 721FF - 46 tanks

Hans Luhr - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G77,St.G102 - ~850FF - + 20.09.1944 - 33 tanks

Adolf Weiß - RK 29/02/44 - Oberfeldwebel-St.G. 77, SG 151 - 869FF -+32 tanks

Ernst Orzegowski - RK 14/01/45 - Feldwebel-SG77,SG10 - 682FF - 31 tanks

Hans Steinwachs - RK 05/02/44 -- Hauptmann-St.G1,SG1,SG151 - ~600FF - MIA - 31 tanks

Peter Gaßmann - RK 25/05/1942 - Major-III./SG 1 - +800FF - 24 tanks

Alwin Boerst - EL 28/11/42 - Major-I./SG2 - 1060FF - 6 tanks

Cheers, Hetzer.

[ March 14, 2007, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Hetzer38]

...and, from the

"Handbuch der Bordwaffenmunition Erprobungsstelle der Luftwaffe 1942"...

vorläufige Schusstafel for 3,7cm M-Granatpatrone 18 L'Spur

Schusstafel for 3,7cm H-Pzgr.Patr. L'Spur o.Zerl.

Cheers, Hetzer.

[ March 12, 2007, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Hetzer38]

...and, from the

"Handbuch der Bordwaffenmunition Erprobungsstelle der Luftwaffe 1942"...

vorläufige Schusstafel for 3,7cm M-Granatpatrone 18 L'Spur

Schusstafel for 3,7cm H-Pzgr.Patr. L'Spur o.Zerl.

Cheers, Hetzer.

[ March 12, 2007, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Hetzer38 ]

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Hetzer38:

But I just don't see the point in connecting his political views and his character-flaws to his ability to knock out tanks from the air.

We're not. We're connecting his political views and character flaws to his ability to accurately report his success at knocking out tanks from the air.

Right?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Hetzer38:

But I just don't see the point in connecting his political views and his character-flaws to his ability to knock out tanks from the air.

We're not. We're connecting his political views and character flaws to his ability to accurately report his success at knocking out tanks from the air.

Right?

[Hetzer38]

Right.

And still there is no definite proof that everything he claimed (...damn that we have no "verification data" of his claims, like 01/04/44 -> 4 tanks destroyed at Kuhkafka, confirmed by squadron members LT Bohlen and OG Anders / Major Neese of I.R. 0815 on the ground...) is complete rubbish based on the fact that he was such a fanatic Nazi.

Cheers, Hetzer.

[Hetzer38]

Right.

And still there is no definite proof that everything he claimed (...damn that we have no "verification data" of his claims, like 01/04/44 -> 4 tanks destroyed at Kuhkafka, confirmed by squadron members LT Bohlen and OG Anders / Major Neese of I.R. 0815 on the ground...) is complete rubbish based on the fact that he was such a fanatic Nazi.

Cheers, Hetzer.

[michael kenny]

Using pilots claims we can say they did as well as Allied TAF pilots in France.