Snow Leopard Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 It may be old topic but not easy find question/answer via search in this forum so I bring it up. I am sorry but may good question. Will HMG able to penetration thin armor on top of tanks from second floor building. If I use anti-tank rifle, it will show chart of range/penetration against thicknes of armor but HMG not show it. Can anyone bring old news/chart or new one for CM up for us. Thank you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermind Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 Originally posted by Snow Leopard: It may be old topic but not easy find question/answer via search in this forum so I bring it up. I am sorry but may good question. Will HMG able to penetration thin armor on top of tanks from second floor building. If I use anti-tank rifle, it will show chart of range/penetration against thicknes of armor but HMG not show it. Can anyone bring old news/chart or new one for CM up for us. Thank you. This is actually a pretty good question.I would assume that it would against anything that had an open top,like a Marder.Aside from those,i would guess that only the very early war stuff would have thin enough armor on top.It would have to be 10mm or less(probably less)for it to penetrate.Then again,im not even sure if it is something that is possible in the game,due to limitations. Maybe a grog or someone more knowledgeable will come by and enlighten us 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 Top penetrations only apply with indirect stuff, like mortars, artillery and demo charges. Other weapons can't achieve top hits, no matter in what angle they hit the target. A thing of the engine. Open-topped vehicles might be a bit different story in this regard, though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 Not so. If the angles are suitable, top penetrations can occur. I have a screen shot of one occuring from a 2pdr shot, but nowhere to post it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 Originally posted by flamingknives: I have a screen shot of one occuring from a 2pdr shot...Interesting, but the question was regarding HMGs. I would sort of assume that a .50 caliber at short range and a fairly steep angle could pull it off with armor no greater than, say, 25mm in thickness, give or take some, but I can't say I've ever seen it and I have never tested for that. It would be kind of an unusual situation, such as firing from the top floor of a building down to the street below. I doubt merely shooting from the top of a hill to the foot of it would fulfill the range/angle requirements, but like I say, I haven't tested the theory or heard of anyone who did, so it remains an open question. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 Originally posted by flamingknives: Not so. If the angles are suitable, top penetrations can occur. I have a screen shot of one occuring from a 2pdr shot, but nowhere to post it. Great if it is so, I just remember from testing this in CMBO. I set a Tiger on a steep slope, then put a battalion of AA guns on a tall hill opposite of it. Despite that the Tiger's roof was turned toward the guns, there were no top hits. I shall test how it is in CMBB to see at which point it was changed. As Emrys says, for a HMG it would be unlikely to work. In most situations the angle would be too bad and the bullets would just ricochet. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 I think the new height levels in CMAK might have something to do with it. (8m steps) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 I did the test in CMBB - top hits do happen. And it didn't take very long from the release to realize this... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 Charles said he coded top hits into CMBB (and hence CMAK). The .50cal kills a Pz IV throgh the 20mm rear armor, so yes, it is a very good question whether a hit hit from a second story or a building is modeled. It might be difficult to achieve serious post-penetration effect on crew and primary weapon systems. But I imagine you could go through the engine covers to punch holes into tubes, and you can probably damage hydraulics or hydraulic pipes in the engine or turret area. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappy Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 This is realistic and in the game. A .50 cal will penetrate 20-25mm at point blank. I'm guessing that a MG42 or similar smaller MG will probably penetrate 12-15mm. The tougher question is whether these weapons will target a tank. MGs are generally coded to not engage buttoned tanks. You may have to target manually. Open topped vehicles are a whole other ballgame. Even rifle squads should be able to take out a Marder or HT in this sort of situation. There is special coding for fire from above on open topped vehicles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paco QNS Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 Not tanks, but I shooted a BA russian auto-car from less than 100 meters with a HMG on a top floor, blasting it -and the remaining crew-. IIRC it get a top hit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Open topped vehicles can get killed by small arms out to qutie a long way if they get bullets through the (non-existant) roof - CMBB & AK do quite a good job of not giving armour protection where there is no armour! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool breeze Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 I just tested it out in cmbb with an anti tank rifle, the 12. something mm heavy machine gun and the maxim all shooting at a Panzer IVG. Both the machine guns targeted the tank via the next target button, meaning they thought it was a good target, but they didnt get any kills withh all there ammo. The anti tank rifle worked strangely. It got the top penetration with almost every shot, but some how in 75 rounds it killed only one guy. To make matters weirder it didnt get the credit at the end of the game for the kill. Can anyone explain? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzerfest Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Just tested 4 50cal M2mgs on top floor of light buildings 2 Pz4s fairly close to buildings one buttoned. Buttoned tank knocked out and burning within 20secs, the 2nd lost commander and a crew member and was immobilized before being taken out near end of next turn. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 Here is what Charles had to say about this: The game's math is set up to calculate this, but I very much doubt that an HMG can penetrate a tank's top armor (with the occasional exception of US .50 cal). Why? Because even when firing from a 2nd story or a hilltop, the angle isn't anywhere near steep enough. The shallow trajectory amounts to a hit against "highly sloped" top armor. So even if the armor is thin, it becomes effectively a lot thicker. And since .30 cal (8mm) HMG bullets are hard pressed to penetrate all but the very thinnest of tank armor, this pretty much prevents any such penetration. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool breeze Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 I thought the two story buildings were actually more like 3 or 4 in engine? Don't know if i read this or made it up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Two story buildings represent three/four story buildings in game. Look at the number of windows. AFAIK, the engine does not model anything differently to how you see it in game in this respect. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slappy Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 I can only assume that Charles is commenting on MGs firing down at tanks at what he would consider more typical angles (tank 100m away from building), not the rather more extreme tests done here with Pzs parked directly under the window. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Boggs Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 Originally posted by Moon: Here is what Charles had to say about this: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The game's math is set up to calculate this, but I very much doubt that an HMG can penetrate a tank's top armor (with the occasional exception of US .50 cal). Why? Because even when firing from a 2nd story or a hilltop, the angle isn't anywhere near steep enough. The shallow trajectory amounts to a hit against "highly sloped" top armor. So even if the armor is thin, it becomes effectively a lot thicker. And since .30 cal (8mm) HMG bullets are hard pressed to penetrate all but the very thinnest of tank armor, this pretty much prevents any such penetration. </font> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSColonel_131st Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Maschine Guns against Armor is strange the way it appears in CMBB... I was thinking along similar lines with the sovjet 12.7mm DKSH against german armored cars, Halftracks etc. Since a .50 cal will open current austrian APCs (I wouldn't call them modern, but they are not that old either) I wanted to try if the WW2 Version will do the same to APCs. From what I found, Penetrations for single Maschine-Gun Bullets dont seem to be modelled at all. That is, you dont get any "penetration; partial penetration etc." messages. However, light armor, when coming under 12,7mm Fire, will be abandoned by the crew VERY quickly, even if no one else is firing at it, and even if the crew has no losses. Similar thing happened to me in a recent TCP/IP Game...my enemy used a DKSH on a Halftrack, and after two salvos my perfectly good crew bailed out of a perfectly good vehicle. So, long story short...as I see it, the game has "canon" ammo and "infantry" ammo, where Canon Shots will be tracked individually, but infantry ammo will not. Yet even if they are not individually tracked, they have a certain power over enemy vehicles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Leopard Posted February 6, 2004 Author Share Posted February 6, 2004 I agree with some members about effect of HMG. I had noticed armor cars' effect when large cab. machine gun hit them. That mean MG34/42 HMG won't work but 50. cal/12.7mm HMG will work. I think best thing to attack tank from second floor is drop bundle of grenade or Molotov cocktail even firing rifle grenade at top of tank. I feel bad for minor power don't have better anti-tank weapon as only pioneer soldier carry nbr explovies. I sometime wonder which members of crew wound or killed if MG firing at rear of opened rear AFV. T/O or gunner or loader? I believe driver may safe due to deep inside of tank. [ February 05, 2004, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Snow Leopard ] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 What tanks are open at the rear? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Leopard Posted February 6, 2004 Author Share Posted February 6, 2004 Originally posted by Michael Emrys: What tanks are open at the rear? Oooops, I mean any AFV instead of Tank( I edited my last message) opened rear "tank" AFV like older/makeshift tank destroyer or SP artillery. Thank you Michael for correct me to make more clear in my message. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tar Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 I can't right now recall for certain whether CM models the pitch of target vehicles when computing impact angles. If it does, then a situation where a unit on one hill is shooting at a tank climbing the opposite wall of a valley might be able to get a fairly decent angle on the top armor. I'll give it an attempt in text pictures: </font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> MG \==> * * / \ * * / A / \ * * * OA / Tank \ V / \ / +----------------------+ </pre> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nevermind Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Originally posted by tar: I can't right now recall for certain whether CM models the pitch of target vehicles when computing impact angles. If it does, then a situation where a unit on one hill is shooting at a tank climbing the opposite wall of a valley might be able to get a fairly decent angle on the top armor. I'll give it an attempt in text pictures: </font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> MG \==> * * / \ * * / A / \ * * * OA / Tank \ V / \ / +----------------------+ </pre> 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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