Questions that need answers....please

[British Tommy]

A good friend of mine recently bought CMBO+CMBB.He has asked me several questions which I tried to answer correctly.I'm now posing the same questions to the experts here!

I have pasted them in below for you to ponder on.

Question about our CMBO game:

If I had approached the side of the hill with my STUG 42 where your AT team was and my STUG was facing their SIDE instead of their FRONT, would they have been able to knock out the STUG as quickly?

In other words, while the manual says that facing is important for infantry units in terms of SPOTTING, is it as important with FIRING? Would it have taken more time for your boys to "rotate" and then fire at a flanking STUG instead of a STUG coming head-on for them?

Also, on a similar note, if I have a hiding infantry unit, and one of your infantry units is very close but has not spotted my unit AND my unit is facing AWAY from your unsuspecting unit at a 90 degree angle, should I order my unit to "rotate" toward your unit for a quicker ambush? Thank you for helping me kill your troops more effectively! Looking forward to the response.

[Moon]

Infantry unit facing is important for firing small arms. Think of it as a squad formation that has to be assumed first before weapons can be used effectively. But for secondary weapons like bazookas or demo charges, facing is not relevant. Bazookas, rifle grenades etc. can be fired "to the side".

Rotating a unit, if you want to use small arms against a target, is important. However, rotating a unit means that the unit loses its "hiding" status, even if for a short time. This again means that if you have an enemy units close by, it is going to spot your rotating unit most likely.

[Slappy]

Wow, far be it from me to argue with Moon, but I feel I have to. I agree with everything but the answer on bazookas.

I've been playing this game a long time, and I've never seen a bazooka fire in a direction is wasn't facing. Bazookas are not considered 'secondary weapons' with a squad, they are primary crew served weapons like MGs and AT guns and tend to behave as such with respect to firing and facing. Your bazooka must rotate to face the target in order to fire.

Panzerfausts will fire at any facting as they are senondary carried squad weapons.

[JasonC]

I will also point out on question #1 that while the zook needs to rotate, it will do so much much faster than the poor StuG will. If you want to kill a zook with a StuG, don't flank it (shudder). Just stay 250 yards away and shell it from a safe distance. "But I don't have LOS from back there". Find some place that does, or send infantry, then.

[PiggDogg]

Guys,

In my CM experience, zook, schreck, and piat teams must rotate toward their intended target in order to fire. This might be less than a second to a very few seconds, but such teams don't fire until they rotate and zero-in on their intended target.

Further, in order for AFVs to kill AT teams with no danger from the AT teams to the AFVs, have the AFVs stay a bit more than 200 meters from the cover of the zooks & piats and a bit more than 225 meters from the cover of the schrecks. Always have your own infantry in front of your AFVs to spot the AT teams and enemy infantry and AT guns. Then let the properly placed AFV whack the AT teams with HE supported by the spotting infantry's fire.

There is seldomly any useful reason to take any risk by allowing one's AFVs within the range of enemy AT teams.

Also, do a search over the past 3 years and take a look at the vast number of excellent posts from JasonC regarding most every aspect of how to attack, defend, and counterattack in CM. :eek: The boy obviously does not have a life except CM.

However, that is quite good for the CM community. Such profusion of posts is a cornicopia of CM knowledge for all CM players, both newbie and grog. Indeed, myself and others thank JasonC for his kindness in spending large amounts of time in posting his accurate and voluminous CM knowledge.

Cheers, Richard

[Colonel J Lee]

Hey guys,

I'm the newbie who posed the questions to the "posting member", British Tommy. JASON C. : I appreciate your input and knowledge. Fun reading. Sounds like you've served in the military or just read a whole lot of books on the subject of WW2, etc. FOR CLARIFICATION - I backed off of a hill with the STUG when I spotted the zook team. I thought that I would swing around the other side of the hill, stand off, create some fear, and zip HE rounds into the zook position. However, I wondered if I had "charged" the hill from the side while out of his LOS, would he have needed time to reposition, that is, swing to his flank. I would have been already pointing at him. THAT WAS THE REAL QUESTION. Well, it didn't matter, because, ironically, when I backed off the hill (at about 100 meters at most, maybe) he just popped up and blasted me!!! I didn't think I zook could get a 80mm penetration from that distance on a STUG 42 assault gun. I was wrong. The data windown for the zook team says 90mm at 100 meters with 0 degree slope. The STUG is probably 20 degree slope, no? And then that would mean the zook would have just enough to penetrate. Anyway, it was all a learning experience. Thanks fellas.

[PiggDogg]

JJL,

Just don't let your AFVs get within 200 meters of the cover where enemy infantry AT teams can be. It is just not worth the risk of losing a 100-200 point AFV to a 20 point AT team. :eek:

Beyond 200 meters, AFVs are invulnerable, at least from the infantry AT teams. Tanks are not invulnerable. They just bounce small arms fire and AT shells that are smaller than their armor can bounce.

Have patience. You don't have to win every CM game by a total victory. Let the enemy come to you, and use your infantry AT teams to whack his tanks. :cool:

Cheers, Richard

[tar]

I didn't think I zook could get a 80mm penetration from that distance on a STUG 42 assault gun.

You might notice that the penetration values of a bazooka or panzerfaust/schreck don't vary with range. That is because they are hollow charge weapons (code C in CMBO and HC in CMBB/CMAK).

Hollow charge weapons depend on the action of the warhead itself to penetrate the armor, not on the velocity of the of round. Since the warhead effect is for all intents and purposes not affected by range, you get the same penetration. This is a useful property, especially for low muzzle velocity weapons that otherwise wouldn't get penetration at all.

Range still affects the chances of getting a hit in the first place, but not the penetration that the hit will achieve.

[Gen. J-sun]

How come Bazookas are not part of squads as with the fausts?

I allways thought crew served weapons like M1919's and Bazookas somehow got evaporated into squads, since commanders thought it better to give them more protection in a squad...and why is it that in MG crews only the gunner fires? What are the ammo bearers doing? Twidling their thumbs in a firefight! :eek:

[Kingfish]

How come Bazookas are not part of squads as with the fausts?

I allways thought crew served weapons like M1919's and Bazookas somehow got evaporated into squads, since commanders thought it better to give them more protection in a squad

Think of a faust as AT ammo, much like a rifle grenade, and as such can be fired by just about anyone in the squad. Zooks, Panzershreks and PIATs are crew served weapons requiring specially trained soldiers to operate. In the CW formations PIATs were organic to the platoons, while Zooks were part of the company TO&E but usually divided up to provide support to the individual platoons / squads.

[Corvidae]

"...and why is it that in MG crews only the gunner fires? What are the ammo bearers doing? Twidling their thumbs in a firefight!" ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

the gunner fires the gun, the ammo bearer feeds the gun, the spotters look for fresh targets,

[xerxes]

Heh, the slope on the armor was probably pretty well nullified by the zook shooting DOWN at the armor. CM calculates the angle (vertical and horzontal planes) between the firer and the target to find armor slope.

That's why you generally want your armor/AT guns firing down at the enemy, not up. In extreme cases firing uphill at already heavily sloped armor makes the target pretty much invulnerable.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Especially if that target is a JgPz IV/70 or a Jagdpanther!

Regards

Jim R.

[FM Paul Heinrik]

When an AFV crest a steep hill is it's belly armor exposed in the game? Or do you just hit the front? Also, when the AFV crest a steep hill it shouldn't be able to target things nor shoot if the target is too close.

[Spears]

About that Stug... he was downhill from you facing uphill that 20degrees goes out the window as the firing angle changes. As i noticed with the m10, If he is uphill and hulldown from your AFV he has a 45 degree slope on his armour so at that angle everything that is hitting glances off. Wish i never posted that (try it)

[Carl Puppchen]

As a defender you should be happy that the bazooka is a crew fired weapon. I find that the 'zook is much more likely to actually fire against an enemy tank / AFV than the squad 'faust will. As a result, it makes it a proportionately more dangerous weapon. Since I always play the axis I have torn my hair out like 100 times trying to get my squads to fire their fausts - but you can always get a shreck / zook team to take a shot (even if they die quickly afterwards! ).

As far as holding AFV's back beyond the infantry AT weapon range that is a good idea, but in general tanks often need to "mix it up" with infantry to get an attack going that has been bogged down. Against a passive AI you can stand off and wait for them to make a mistake or expose themselves at bad odds and get smashed but a good human will take your infantry to ground with arty / MG fire and often you will have to force the issue with tanks.

[Colonel J Lee]

Puppchen and Spears: precisely. I was downhill Spears (with my STUG) and it never entered my mind that he was firing basically at ZERO degree slope! That really explains it.

Yes, I felt I needed to "force the issue" with the STUG, Puppchen. You described exactly what was happening in my first CMBO game back in January: bogged down attack with the infantry being whittled away by 105mm artillery and MG fire. However, I thought I WAS at a safe distance with respect to the zook team. Like I said, a learning experience. Man, I love these games, all 3 of them!