Scoot and Shoot: Useless?

[GRUMLIN]

I would welcome comments on the problem I have just had with S&S...

Two T34s were instructed to scoot up ro a ridgeline, shoot at a german tank (TIGER?), and retreat back down behind the ridge. They were side by side on a road, giving good speed and no bogging chances...

The reason I did this seemingly risky maneuver was that the Tiger was targetting another t34 that was fast moving on one of its flanks, meaning that I could get a shot off before it rotated back.

Indeed, the two T34s rush up, shoot, and both get hits. Two ricochets, but hey, I wasn't that hopeful, but for two 'free' shots who is arguing.

Then, as I watch in horror, they sit there. And sit there. The Tiger wakes up and nails one. The second one then remembers I had given it SHOOT AND SCOOT orders, and after 18 seconds.

[GRUMLIN]

Part 2:

It wakes up and trundles back out of sight, but not before getting a GUN DAMAGED result from what I think was an ATR.

Now - why on earth did they sit there for 18 seconds, when under orders to SCOOT after firing. Any ideas.

BTW, the surviving tank commander will be sent to a penal battalion...assuming he survives the rest of the battle...

[CombinedArms]

I've had a lot of trouble with shoot and scoot myself. With the fear element that now seems built into the brains of tankers in the TacAI, I've had more luck with the hunt-reverse command. That way the tanker has more discretion and will reverse away if he feels outgunned--much moreso than in CMBO.

With shoot and scoot, the tanker seems locked into the command. If he gets off his shot BEFORE completing the forward order (which may have happened in the above attack on the Tiger) he still has to complete the whole forward order before reversing. That can lead to some dead tanks. Also, AFVs with slow rates of fire are forced to shoot, even if they could get dead before getting the shot off.

Can anyone suggest a good situation for using shoot and scoot rather than hunt-reverse?

[_Axe_]

Well, I don't have an answer for your conundrum.

However, the shoot and scoot feature with a single T-34 against a nasty gaggle of PZIVs single-handidly kept me in a PBEM game once. Big fan ever since.

Cheers,

Jason

[Redwolf]

What was the morale of the tank while waiting? Shaken or maybe even shocked?

Myself, I think the scoot-and-shoot command is one of the CMBB additions that work well (as people might know, I have reservations against some other news mechanics).

I also don't recommend getting into LOS with tanks close together, especially not against non-turret or slow-turret opponents. They are too easy to be picked off both in short order.

Also, the scoot-and-shoot command does not allow you to set the shoot point "whereever LOS to this and that is", which I think it should. If you plot the point too far forward, the opponents gets a time advantage of targetting your scoot-and-shooting vehicle while it is still (needlessly) moving forward.

SOPs in a future CM version will make me happy. A hunt command with a "retreat after firing" is exactly what I think scoot-and-shoot should have been, without introducing a new command.

[Grisha]

CombinedArms,

Maybe you're on to something. It seems like shoot & scoot works best when the element of surprise is available, or there are sufficient numbers to divide the enemy's attention. What I mean to say is shoot & scoot is a more 'confident' display of the action. Hunt-reverse would be the more cautious interpretation perhaps, allowing the tanker to call it and go turret down if it doesn't look good. If you have about 3 or more tanks behind a ridgeline, popping them up in staggered motion is pretty effective. Or, something that just came to mind, let's take the previous situation, but say it's a lot more hot out there (Panthers are in the field). Rather than have the 3 tanks pop up with shoot & scoot in staggered motion, have the first tank up use hunt-reverse, then let the other two use shoot & scoot.

[GRUMLIN]

Good answers so far guys. However, the t34s did NOT fire before ending the fast move bit (I planned the LOS very carefully) and neither were shocked or shaken. Obviously the ones that got blown up by the tiger after 13-14 seconds were upset, but thats a different kettle of fish...

G :eek:

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by redwolf:

What was the morale of the tank while waiting? Shaken or maybe even shocked?

Myself, I think the scoot-and-shoot command is one of the CMBB additions that work well (as people might know, I have reservations against some other news mechanics).

I also don't recommend getting into LOS with tanks close together, especially not against non-turret or slow-turret opponents. They are too easy to be picked off both in short order.

Also, the scoot-and-shoot command does not allow you to set the shoot point "whereever LOS to this and that is", which I think it should. If you plot the point too far forward, the opponents gets a time advantage of targetting your scoot-and-shooting vehicle while it is still (needlessly) moving forward.

SOPs in a future CM version will make me happy. A hunt command with a "retreat after firing" is exactly what I think scoot-and-shoot should have been, without introducing a new command.

"A hunt command with a "retreat after firing" is exactly what I think scoot-and-shoot should have been"

I like that idea....

Hunt to contact

Aquire LOS

Target

Fire ONCE

Reverse OUT of LOS (immediately )

I am looking for the SOP called HATFR (thats HATfir) New Command for the rewrite !!

now that is the SOP I am looking for!

-tom w

[ January 19, 2003, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]

[Lindan]

If you use the command with low-ROF vehicles like a Su 1xx it's very effective.

[Volstag]

I've stopped using S&S entirely. It never really seems to work. 50% of the time, my tank will move forward and then immediately reverse w/o even taking a shot -- even if it's a "perfect" flank/rear shot. The other 50% of the time, they move forward, shoot, and then casually wait for return fire.

Needless to say, I've been using Hunt + Reverse a lot more these days.

Out,

Volstag

[Redwolf]

But Hunt+Reverse is not suitable for most situations I use shoot-and-scoot for.

For me, the point about shoot-and-scoot is that the vehicle will retreat after a few seconds. However, if you use hunt, it will slug it out with enemy AFVs as long as any of them is in sight.

In addition, hunt-and-reverse means that if the vehicle started fighting before the return point, finishes finighting and then moves on, it will move forward (to complete the hunt command), not backwards.

I must stop reading this forum before I get so discouraged to stop playing...

[aka_tom_w]

Originally posted by redwolf:

But Hunt+Reverse is not suitable for most situations I use shoot-and-scoot for.

For me, the point about shoot-and-scoot is that the vehicle will retreat after a few seconds. However, if you use hunt, it will slug it out with enemy AFVs as long as any of them is in sight.

In addition, hunt-and-reverse means that if the vehicle started fighting before the return point, finishes finighting and then moves on, it will move forward (to complete the hunt command), not backwards.

I must stop reading this forum before I get so discouraged to stop playing...

"I must stop reading this forum before I get so discouraged to stop playing..."

Oh it can't be that bad.....

Just try playing a game of CMBO without all the new orders (WHAT? :confused: no cover arc?!) and then you will remember how much you really enjoy CMBB !

-tom w

[Snarker]

Just thinking outloud, but since some of the armor in CMBB has a very slow pivot rate is it possible the 'scoot' part of the command is delayed if you don't back straight up with one of these tanks?

[BeauCoupDinkyDau]

I find that 'shoot and scoot' is more of a good way for AFV's to draw off enemy fire while the real tank killer is using a 'move to seek hull down' command for the real engagement.

In a scenario I am playing right now, I have several Pz38t's being given 'shoot and scoot' orders by me with diffrent 'pause' times, so that they are popping up and retreating here and there to keep the enemy gunners busy and frustraited. So far it has allowed my infantry to advance unmolested while only losing one Pz38t.

Otherwise, 'shoot and scoot' is worthless if you want to hit distant targets, because the gunners cannot bracket their targets and one shot hit/kills don't come as often as one might wish.

[ January 19, 2003, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Vader's Jester ]

[GRUMLIN]

Quick update on this pbem game - both T34s are now dead.

:mad:

Grum

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by Snarker:

Just thinking outloud, but since some of the armor in CMBB has a very slow pivot rate is it possible the 'scoot' part of the command is delayed if you don't back straight up with one of these tanks?

I think this may very well be IT! I usually tend to vary the angle just for variety, but coming straight back may be the answer. There certainly are delays in CMBB when you change your tanks angle. I'm gonna run a test.

[CombinedArms]

OK, test run, and I think it WORKS to have the shoot-and-scoot tank come straight back. I ran a test with 8 T-34/85s attacking 8 Tigers (PzVIE late) along 8 separate tracks lined by trees. There was a ridgeline separating the Allied and Axis tanks. The Tigers were presenting their flanks, and the T-34s were given shoot and scoot orders designed to put them in hulldown positions on the ridgeline about 700m from the Tigers. The scoot order had them coming straight back. The first time, the T=34/85s scored two Tiger kills and lost one T-34.

It took about 12-14 seconds to reach the apex of the forward order, find the target, fire and reverse. Maybe 18-20 total seconds of exposure from first appearance before reversing completely out of sight. Most of the Tigers got off a shot, but the hulldown protected most of the tanks (with shots hitting the embankment or sailing high) while the T-34s almost all scored hits--not all fatal. As I said, two were actual Tiger kills.

I tried it again on turn two. This time the Tigers were ready. Several (but not all) had turned to face forward. But I got two more Tiger kills and lost no T-34s. Overall result: four dead Tigers and one dead T-34. Not bad.

This is just a preliminary test but some conclusions I would personally draw are:

1. Coming STRAIGHT back is a very good idea. I'm sure it limits exposure time by a few seconds.

2. Choosing a true hulldown position as the apex of the forward order is important. Look for it carefully.

3. You may not escape being fired on, even by a slow turreted opponent like at Tiger. Hence the importance of hulldown. It's also not a good idea to attack a large number of enemy AFVs this way--they may all be shooting at you before you get away if the exposure time is really 18-20 seconds. It's better to use shoot-and-scoot for one, two, or three on one encounters with a single threatening opponent. If you can hit that one tank from two sides, so much the better.

4. Catching the enemy tank at a disadvantage (such as a flank shot) is wise (so scouting with some infantry beforehand would be a good idea.)

5. All in all, I think you can get very close to the desired hunt-reverse order that redwolf was talking about if you carefully choose your hulldown position and scoot straight back.

[ January 19, 2003, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[Grisha]

Thanks for the test, CombinedArms.

[-E]

Originally posted by GRUMLIN:

Now - why on earth did they sit there for 18 seconds, when under orders to SCOOT after firing. Any ideas.

Ever driven an unsynchronized transmission with no clutch brake left and miss a shift?

[CombinedArms]

Originally posted by -E:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GRUMLIN:

Now - why on earth did they sit there for 18 seconds, when under orders to SCOOT after firing. Any ideas.

Ever driven an unsynchronized transmission with no clutch brake left and miss a shift?</font>

[Redwolf]

Combinedarms, your comments are right on target.

The shoot-and-scoot in CMBB is not usable to make surprise sniper shots in dangerous envrionments. You must not use it to take on grous of AFVs, you just don't get out of LOS fast enough, you will have everybody getting a shot off at you.

As for realism, I think there are some slight problems here:

1) in real life the tank commander would aquire the target while being turret-down and would give precise command to the gunner where his choice of target hangs out. CMBB doesn't have turret-down, so the full process of target aquisition is happening while already being exposed to the enemy.

2) as mentioned, CMBB tanks do not stop when they get LOS to a target, they drive on to the shoot points. A real tank would shorten the path to get LOS and then directly return.

3) no guaranteed hulldown even if you are operating on a slope.

4) there is no SOP to be set (as in TacOps) that your AFV is to back up immedeately when it is being shot at. It angs out the same time no matter what the opposition is or does.

None of this is a showstopper, as I said I think shoot-and-scoot is one of the new CMBB features that doesn't suffer much from hastly implementation. But still it reinforces my opinion that fewer commands plus SOPs are much better than a gazillion of commands which try to stir up a mix of movement, direction, speed and SOP specifications.