Russian Tanks versus German Tanks

[Johnny M]

Hi

I am new here, so maybee this subject is very

old, but I try

I am playing Allied and I have SU-122, Su-152 and other powerfull russian tanks, and I am still losing. The tiger and Panther tanks are simply to strong and they can hit me from a long distance and kill my tanks and it's very seldom, that I can kill the german tanks

Any idea or way to win over the german tanks ?

I will be gratefull if somebody has some solutions

Regards

Johnny

[Edward Windsor]

Hello Johnny,

Unfortunately I can't claim to be an expert, but you might get a few pointers from far better players than me if you check out some of the Jaegermeister threads in the scenario talk forum.

Toodle pip,

Teddy

[ParaBellum]

First: both the SU-122 and the SU-152 are definately not the right tanks for dueling with Panthers and Tigers.

Both are assault guns and their main task is to blast german infantry strongpoints. Look at the data for the SU-122. It's armed with a short (L22) 122mm gun with a pretty low muzzle velocity (about 330m/s for a hollow charge round). That means you won't be able to hit a german tank at longer ranges because the gun is simply not accurate enough because its trajectory is pretty curved and not flat like the german long 75mm and 88mm guns. In CM the higher the muzzle velocity the more accurate a gun is.

Same problem with the SU-152. Although the gun is better the muzzle velocity is still far lower than the german guns'. And what's even worse, because the rounds consist of two seperate parts it takes ages to load them.

Did I mention that german optics are superior to the soviet ones?

Conclusion: Never ever engage in long-range duels with slow-firing assault guns with low muzzle velocity against Panthers and Tigers. They will die. A lot.

If there's absolutely no other way (there always is... ) at least use the 'shoot and scoot' command so minimize their vulnerability.

Use dedicated tank destroyers like the SU-100 or SU-85s or buy a lot of T-34/85, use their superior speed, drop a smokescreen with a 82mm FO, close in and flank the german cats.

[ February 03, 2003, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: ParaBellum ]

[MikeyD]

If you're playing against a human I'd suggest you find a cozy spot for your assault guns and wait in ambush for the Tiger to come looking for you. This takes some nerve. It might mean 25 turns of just listening to the birds chirping in the trees. But if you go actively hunting for him chances are you're the one who's going to die.

An alternative is to do a LOT of scouting first. Scour the countryside with troops and light tanks. let THEM find a good safe spot for your SU to engage, then race there immediately. The last thing you want is to be caught by enemy armor on your flanks. The SU just can't pivot fast enough and you will get holed.

[ February 03, 2003, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: MikeyD ]

[Gaylord Focker]

If your going to set an amush, if possible keyhole, meaning place you afv in a spot with a very narrow los, wait for an unsuspecting enemy afv to come into the los and bam!

It can work very well.

[MikeyD]

Good point about keyholing (is that a CM board-only phrase or a real semi-official military tactics term?). Last thing a sp gun wants is a second target to show up just outside his arc of fire

[Wisbech_lad]

Choose early 42 or late 41.

Buy KV1s.

Let the Germans have the problem

[SgtMuhammed]

The big problem most new players run into is the fact that Russian armor has a much higher degree of specialization than German. While the Germans had to make most of their armor capable of defeating Russian tanks the Russians were able to crank out tons of decent tanks and so could also produce large numbers of more traditional infantry support vehicles, i.e. the big SUs (SUVs? ). While these look impressive with their 122 and 152mm cannon you have to realize that these are low MV and not suited for AT combat.

It may take some time but one of the best things you can do to help yourself is to try to become familiar with the various vehicles on each side. Look at their muzzle velocities and the types of cannon. Look at the types of optics, the speed and ground pressure. Any knowledge you gain off the battlefield will only help you on it. Like I said, however, this will take time as there is no real comprehensive database (hopefully this will be included in the next game's manual) so you will have to play around with QBs and the scenario editor. The end result will be well worth it though.

As for immediate tactics the previous points are very helpful. I would add that it almost never pays to take on the Germans (especially the big cats) at long range even in a good tank, thier optics give them a tremendous advantage. Look for areas where you can assume a reverse slope or where terrain will force then to come at you one at a time and then you can gang fire them.

One last thing, yes the term "keyhole" is kind of semi official military jargon. You won't find it in the manuals but everyone uses it.

[Sergei]

I wish to disagree about the SU's being unsuitable for AT combat. True, they do have low muzzle velocity, which makes it hard to hit a tank from a distance. But at ranges where you have a fair chance for hitting, their HEAT rounds will kill. Actually, according to Russian Battlefield, they could cause trouble to Tigers even with normal AP ammunition.

Still, they're not the sort of weapons you want to use for dueling. Actually, you never should duel, unless you have a KV-1 vs. Pz-38(t) situation (and you have the KV-1!) or you like playing Russian roulette, because with every shot that your enemy makes at you, you have a chance to brew up or immobilize or take gun damage.

[Grisha]

I agree with Sergei. The high rate of fire of German tank crews should be reason enough to keep Soviet tanks from committing to duels. Rather, use numbers to compensate for lower rates of fire, or conduct fire from defilade (ala shoot n' skoot). Also, make maximum use of AT/field guns in combination with Soviet tanks. The Soviets often made use of even heavy artillery in the napoleonic sense, which works well with numbers.

I'd even venture to say that it was more important for the Soviets to conduct combined arms warfare than it was for the Germans due to the generally superior skill and experience of German soldiers and crews.

[Sergeant Pepper]

has anyone seen my mate heydrich lately and where did i park that tiger. In short change ya tank type use superior numbers or terrain advantage or forget it. :eek: