Bogged Vehicles

[Wildass69]

This may not be new but one trick I've found that "typically" works when a vehicle first bogs is to cancel all forward movement and reverse straight back. It doesn't always work and some times it takes 2 or 3 turns but I seem to have a good success rate with this. Of course the longer you wait to reverse the less likely it seems to work so you have to keep an eye on your cross country vehicles.

Now a question. Has anyone successfully freed a bogged vehicle by pushing it with another vehicle? Even more important has anyone ever remobilized a vehicle that became so bogged that it became immobile by pushing it with another vehicle?

The illogic of pushing a bogged vehicle with another (presumably as heavy or even heavier) vehicle is that you risk bogging the new vehicle. But that doesn't particularly happen. At least not in my experiance. I realize in the heat of battle a bogged vehicle should be left behind and that a mobile unit would not stop to unstick one of it's elements. But it does seem that the possibility should exist.

I personally feel CM (in this case BB) is a little too handy with bogging. I would not expect that much mud to exist on a hot July morning in southern Russia. Yet there he is; our good ol' friend Mr. bog. But that's just me...

Wildass

[Tank Ace]

yes that does work, i try it all the time.

[BulletRat]

I just cancel all movement orders and let it sit there - usually unbogs itself.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Wildass69:

I personally feel CM (in this case BB) is a little too handy with bogging. I would not expect that much mud to exist on a hot July morning in southern Russia. Yet there he is; our good ol' friend Mr. bog. But that's just me...

Wildass

Bogging is not just "bogging in mud" but an abstraction for anything that brings the vehicle to a halt. Mechanical breakdown like engine failure, throwing tracks etc is included. A hot day will even increase jamming of MGs!

Gruß

Joachim

[Sergei]

As the vehicle is bogged, nothing you do has any effect. It either frees itself or gets immobilised, all automatically. Everything else is just superstition.

It is better not to cancel any orders, as otherwise you'll just have some extra command delays for no gain.

[Dschugaschwili]

AKAIK Sergei is right. The current movement type (if any) does not have any effect on the chance of unbogging.

Dschugaschwili

[Wildass69]

That may be the theory and you can hang onto it if you want but I consistantly unbog vehicles by immediately throwing them into reverse. Try it. Next time you are traversing cross country in HTs or AFV keep a close eye on them. As soon as they bog cancel their forward movements and reverse straight back about 50 yards and watch how many times you get out of a jam. I've found it to be too high of a percentage to be just coincidence.

I'll tell you what the superstition is; that the game engine is infalible and can't be circumvented . Maybe it's not suppose to be influenced by this "trick" but it is!

But no one has to use it. I just thought you might be interested.

[Joachim]

Originally posted by Wildass69:

That may be the theory and you can hang onto it if you want but I consistantly unbog vehicles by immediately throwing them into reverse. Try it. Next time you are traversing cross country in HTs or AFV keep a close eye on them. As soon as they bog cancel their forward movements and reverse straight back about 50 yards and watch how many times you get out of a jam. I've found it to be too high of a percentage to be just coincidence.

I'll tell you what the superstition is; that the game engine is infalible and can't be circumvented . Maybe it's not suppose to be influenced by this "trick" but it is!

But no one has to use it. I just thought you might be interested.

Guess many of us have and celebrate their superstitions. It's part of the fun in the game.

Extensive tests usuually don't prove the superstitions. But WTF - the felt data of thousands of games says they are true, so don't bother me with your tests.

Gruß

Joachim

[Wildass69]

Roger.

And many times they don't disprove them either.

I'd like to add that somewhere in the manual for the game it states that this is not like most other wargames you've played and don't expect that things you may be use to doing to work. Conversely things you would expect to work in real life probably will. Which is exactly how I found this trick.

Think about how a vehicle might get stuck. Then think about it's most likely option to get unstuck. It's best option for getting unstuck is to back out the way that it came. It may or may not work but trying to find another way out is really a gamble (Living in 4x4 country teaches you that).

I've tried variations on this trick. For instance adding forward movement to the reverse seems to negate the trick. In otherwords it's more likely to succeed with just the reverse in one bound straight back than any other variation.

As I said I am just sharing this. No one has to use it. But I'll bet every one of you will try it - especially when the HQ vehicle of your crack panzer platoon gets stuck. You just need to be sure and keek an eye on the bog box and catch it the first turn it happens.

Have fun!

WA

[Sergei]

Well, who am I to turn you away from your pagan rituals. The power of self suggestion is great on the weak.

[Wildass69]

It's a bit weak in of it's self to imply me "weak" when all you know about me is only what I've posted here.

It could also be a serious mistake... should we ever meet on the battle field. (Don't even ask because I don't play other people. I got over all that online politically driven humie crap long ago. I'd rather state my position and then cha-cha with you right here in a civilized manner.)

Quite frank this is the very reason I rarely post here; somehow I tend to bring out the loveliness in people and they seem so compelled to show me how much more they know than I do - regardless of whatever experiances or investigations I've conducted. Not that I'm more than a little inclined to stick around and rub their faces in it; I won't run from a "discussion". Still I have other things to do and I'll think again about sharing my tips even though I will gladly read yours - ARF!

But I'm still betting you will try my "ritual" nevertheless.

Respectfully.....

[Sergei]

Dear W69, my post was written tongue firmly in cheek (see the smilies) so don't be offended for nothing...

[Wildass69]

Roger Sergie,

Good reply. However a lot of truth is said in jest and humies often 'guise what they really mean with a profusion of smilies...

Sincerely

Wary Wildass

[walpurgis nacht]

Originally posted by Wildass69:

Roger Sergie,

Good reply. However a lot of truth is said in jest and humies often 'guise what they really mean with a profusion of smilies...

Sincerely

Wary Wildass

give me a break. He was obviously teasing.

I asked the ultimate authorities about this one a long time ago and I promise you, bogging is not effected by changing movement orders or any other such nonsense.

[Wildass69]

I don't particularly have to give you anything. And I repeat what I implied before; a games engine can exceed its expectations. "They" may tell you what "they" designed it to do but a certain bias introduced into a particular equation may influence the results as no one expected. Usually this results in a bug. There are a hell of a lot of 1s and 0s involved. Did they really check every single possibility? Heck no! That's why we, the consumers, are the final test of any game published.

What's it to you anyway? Use the trick or dismiss it as a myth. I shared something I found useful and have proven to myself, at least, that it does work (in my current battle I've freed +/-12 units and lost one to immobilization so far {22 turns out of 80)). And it's cost me nothing. Do as you please! But if you keep coming back here to rag on me about it I will keep thumping you. I find that delightful!

Amused WA

[Redwolf]

Well, it wouldn't be the first time that Steve or Martin lacked some detail that Charles coded in.

In this case it is unlikely however.

Is there any chance that you mistake it for the bug we once had that reversing vehicles would never bog? (didn't have anything to do with unbogging an already bogged vehicle)

[Wildass69]

Redwolf,

Your post is reasonable. It does not summarily dismiss my alledged findings leaving no room at all for the possibility that what I believe is in fact true.

All my vehicles have been moving forward when they've become bogged. You may be correct that it is unlikely that reversing a bogged vehicle will influence the odds the game engine uses to determine if and when it unbogs. My investigation seems to indicate otherwise but then I don't have access to the codes or any part of the "mechanics" of the game engine. I have simply paid specific attention to what happens over a long period and thru many games. This is what I seem to find;

a) it doesn't work every time.

experiance level of the crew doesn't seem to matter (although my crew levels are seldom below "regular" so I haven't seen enough of conscript and green to tell).

c) reversing straight back (no turns) seems to increase the odds it will unbog.

d) adding any movement to the reverse seems to negate any effect the reverse may have on the odds. Just one reverse bound.

e) waiting more than one turn to reverse the vehicle seems to negate the odds it will unbog with a reverse. (Keep an eye on them.)

f) If a vehicle stays bogged more than three turns any passengers should get off and walk because almost always the vehicle will become immobile.

g) If a vehicle becomes bogged again the reverse trick doesn't seem to work as the odds seem doubly against it. However, by this point it's HQ unit is a long way ahead of it and that factor may have an influence on why this occurs.

h) sometimes a vehicle will bog and immobilize with in the same turn. Ain't nuthin' you can do 'bout it.

h) It's still best to avoid soft ground.

Last night turn 24 seemed to be the "Turn of the Bogged!". Seven vehicles bogged at the same time. Two of these had bogged before. Neather recovered. Of the other 5 all recovered except one. I reversed every one of them.

Reasonable WA

[Redwolf]

Well, if you truly think you are right then you should set up tests in statistically meaningful numbers and environment.

Had 100 StuG IIIs run in deep mud and when they bog, reverse 50 of them and leave 50 alone. Repeat a few times so that you get about 1000 boggings and can compute the chance of unbogging for both cases.

[Green Hornet]

Originally posted by redwolf:

Well, if you truly think you are right then you should set up tests in statistically meaningful numbers and environment.

Good suggestion Redwolf.

Folks can debate on the forum all day (and night) but statistically meaningful data speaks volumes.

[Wildass69]

Agreed.

I didn't relize it was such an issue but apparently I've managed to generate it into one...

I thought I was sharing.

So beit.

However, I'm not going to run 100 stugs into a swamp. While that guarantees they will all become bogged it also seems, unreasonable to expect any of them to unbog. As we all know, "Odds" are the means by which any of this occurs. I just happen to believe that a certain function tends to tip the odds toward a certain result. I don't expect it to be a large difference. The odds of getting out of deep mud must be greater than getting out of soft ground. I would expect a vehicle to be able to free itself from that sort of entrapment - similar to ground I am currently encountering.

It may take me awhile to conduct such a test and it may even be that it would be best for a third "uninterested" party to conduct the testing. I have a bias, regardless of how much I may wish not to, and I would expect the opposing view to have the same.

Any takers? Not that I am not going to conduct a test. I will.

Intrigued WA

[Wildass69]

And to Green Hornet,

You are also correct. But let me re-iterate that I thought I was sharing and even expected that others would concur(one or two did). I didn't come here looking for a debate. But I'm not going to back down from one either. You can see for yourself that it just sort of evolved because, if I may be so blunt, I forgot how chock-full of experts this forum is. I'm not big on experts.

I'm just a man. I don't profess to be anything nor would I presume to know more than any one of you. I came here with respect in hand and didn't expect to be called weak and superstitious - even in jest. You will notice that I have not intentionally assign any kind of "attribute" to any person here other than in a direct and factual defense of my position and who I am. I have that right.

Thanks.

Self-Rightous WA

[Bruceov]

Let me make sure I understand this. There is nothing one can do to avoid bogging because bogging is a matter of chance. A couple of questions. Are some tanks liklier to bog than others. Does it make sense to go faster or slower or reverse? Does the surface make a difference. Does pushing the bogged vehicle help

[Bruceov]

I generally move fast over short distances to avoid bogging.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Bruceov:

Let me make sure I understand this. There is nothing one can do to avoid bogging because bogging is a matter of chance. A couple of questions. Are some tanks liklier to bog than others. Does it make sense to go faster or slower or reverse? Does the surface make a difference. Does pushing the bogged vehicle help

No we said unbogging has the same chance no matter what you do.

The kind of movement performed has great influence.

Vehicles have their chance based on ground pressure, which is unfortunate since it creates some unrealistic items, e.g. a StuG IV is an order of magnitude better than a StuG III. I have never seen a historical reference which would support this.

For a true joke, try a StuG III against a 8-wheel armored car.

[Redwolf]

Originally posted by Wildass69:

However, I'm not going to run 100 stugs into a swamp. While that guarantees they will all become bogged it also seems, unreasonable to expect any of them to unbog. As we all know, "Odds" are the means by which any of this occurs. I just happen to believe that a certain function tends to tip the odds toward a certain result. I don't expect it to be a large difference. The odds of getting out of deep mud must be greater than getting out of soft ground. I would expect a vehicle to be able to free itself from that sort of entrapment - similar to ground I am currently encountering.

You cannot drive into a swamp in CM.

Deep mud will do a fine test. From what we have been told, the chance of unbogging is independent of ground conditions or movement orders. Some say it depends on crew quality, not sure what BFC said.