German SMG usage

[Krautman]

Does anyone know why the germans held on to their K98 as the standard infantry weapon? Since the MP40 could easily be mass-produced (maybe even easier than the K98; no wooden stock?), and was already fully developed (as opposed to Gewehr 41/StG etc), why didn't they equip squads like the Jäger 44 (quite effective in CM imo) earlier on?

[Bone_Vulture]

My top three reasons:

1) Munitions production capacity

2) Logistics, especially on the eastern front

3) German combat doctrine that relied on MG's as the automatic weapon of choice.

[Tigrii]

Jagers kick arse at close range but are useless at rifle range and run out of ammo quickly. Its best to have a balance, such as the fusilier squad, which is a rifle squad that has an extra MP40 instead of a rifle.

[roqf77]

yeah i think the max range on a mp40 would be about 150 metres as opposed to about 450 metres with the k98.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by roqf77:

yeah i think the max range on a mp40 would be about 150 metres as opposed to about 450 metres with the k98.

If you're lucky.

The K98 also used the same ammunition as the squad LMG, which was a bonus.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Yeah, I bet you'd like to use the MP40 to gun down the üntermensch population of the east! Why don't you just post your application to the nearest SS Ersatzgruppen concription office while you're at it!!!1 :mad:

Oh, and the K98 also used the same ammunition as the squad LMG, which was a bonus

Like Mr. Dorosh nicely pointed out, standardized ammunition (and the smalles possible amount of ammunition types to begin with) was critical in order to minimize the maintenance burden each infantry formation caused.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Yeah, I bet you'd like to use the MP40 to gun down the üntermensch population of the east! Why don't you just post your application to the nearest SS Ersatzgruppen concription office while you're at it!!!1 :mad:

Oh, and the K98 also used the same ammunition as the squad LMG, which was a bonus

Like Mr. Dorosh nicely pointed out, standardized ammunition (and the smalles possible amount of ammunition types to begin with) was critical in order to minimize the maintenance burden each infantry formation caused. </font>

[Sergei]

Increased rate of fire, especially when the weapon is less accurate at medium ranges, means an increase in ammo consumption, and that increased ammo consumption must be met by increased logistics.

Plus, during war time it is expensive to start churning up millions of SMG's and meanwhile throw out all of those Kar98's that you've got.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I see the anti-comedy brigade marches on....

Trust me, I'll be pestering you a long time for your earlier lack of etiquette.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Bone_Vulture:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I see the anti-comedy brigade marches on....

Trust me, I'll be pestering you a long time for your earlier lack of etiquette. </font>

[Sirocco]

If you take Red Orchestra - and I know it's just a game - you can quickly discover why the MP40 wasn't issued as a universal weapon. Even at fairly short ranges if your target is moving across you it can take a large expenditure of ammo to hit the target. A rifle - even with a bolt action - is much more useful in most situations.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Shouldn't that be "continuing lack of etiquette"?

No?

[Krautman]

thx for the info.

[RCHRD]

Einsatzgruppen, Micheal, Einsatz.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by RCHRD:

Einsatzgruppen, Micheal, Einsatz.

I didn't write that ****ing ****, so send your corrections to someone who cares.

[Bone_Vulture]

Originally posted by RCHRD:

Einsatzgruppen, Micheal, Einsatz.

No, actually it is Ersatzgruppen. Michael was right all along.

[Dandelion]

Not only did the Germans not have all of their units equipped like the CMBB "Jäger" squads, they didn't even have Jäger squads equipped like that. These squads are fictional and presumably for game purpouses only. Actual Jäger squads were equipped like all other infantry, two smgs and rifles (plus lmg).

The smg was a substandard combat weapon. It had a theoretical range of 150 metres. However, at that range, single fire was used and accuracy was abysmal (try hitting a barn door using even short bursts). Only at 50 some metre range did it (does it) become effective, and even at that range it was more of a suppressive weapon than a very lethal one. In real life, the smg was able to make a useful contribution only in urban environments and in the point blank stage of an assault. Situations not common but still important enough to consider.

In CMAK/BB as well, smgs are ineffective beyond 50 metre range, matched by any rifle at 100 metres and none except the Thompson reaching beyond 100m. Thus an accurate simulation. Had the qualities of suppression and lethality been separated more effectively, the full difference between aimed and fully automatic fire would have been more accurately illustrated.

Generally speaking, the higher rate of fire the greater suppressive effect, and lesser lethal effect, unless dedicated ROF weapons such as machineguns, with which it is possible to aim and fire fully automatic at the same time. American semi automatic rifles were encountered en masse in 1942 and provoked several alarming German reports. Reports focused on being outgunned in 1:1 situations, and while this did not actually lead to higher levels of German casualties, it led to lower level of US casualties, since the volume of suppressive fire delivered by the US was superior, making German movement and effective fire very difficult. Put simply, they found themselves pinned.

The MP44, designed to replace squad weaponry except the lmg, was in concept a semi-automatic rifle with a credible fully automatic option for point blank range. While retaining the accuracy and range of the rifle, with the very significant advantage of not having to make any bolt action or lose sight of the target between shots, it also negated the handicap of rifles in urban combat and like environments. The Germans were thus able to deliver both the suppressive and lethal volumes of their US enemies.

After the war, a very similar type of weapon was adopted, the G3. Being perhaps more focused on the rifle role, as the fully automatic really staggers violently with the G3. Same was true for all of NATO, with the M14, FN FAL etc.

It is a bit of a mystery of CMAK/BB, why combat distances become so dwarfed. I have often wondered why actually. The average combat distance of WWII in Europe was 350 metres according to the Germans. CMAK/BB combat seem to occur at 50 metres on a regular basis. Of course, at such distances, the smg really becomes very handy. And units such as the CMAK/BB "Jäger" (and indeed "Gebirgsjäger", using the same strange TOE) squads become very interesting. And of course one wonders why the Germans had no such units for real, etc.

Yours

Dandelion

[Ant]

It is a bit of a mystery of CMAK/BB, why combat distances become so dwarfed. I have often wondered why actually. The average combat distance of WWII in Europe was 350 metres according to the Germans. CMAK/BB combat seem to occur at 50 metres on a regular basis.

I seem to remember a discussion related to this a couple of years ago about CMBO. It seems that the CM player, and to a certain extent the computer too, are willing to accept far higher casualties and take greater risks than was the case in reality, thus leading to higher instances of closing to lethal range of the enemy.

[Tigrii]

Yeah, I've noticed that even after a victory, your force is often badly mauled and wonder if this is a departure from realistic attrition rates. Since the players don't care about the lives of their men apart from their combat value and there aren't the high stakes of actual war they are far more willing to use suicide scouts, make charges into heavy fire, etc. From my (fairly limited I must confess) reading, I get the impression that on the tactical scale the loss of a platoon was a disaster where its fairly routine in CM.

[Soddball]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by RCHRD:

Einsatzgruppen, Micheal, Einsatz.

I didn't write that ****ing ****, so send your corrections to someone who cares. </font>

[MikeyD]

It wasn't until postwar that analysis of battles brought up the conclusion that the optimal infantry weapon would be medium range high rate of fire. By todays standard the Mauser and Garand fire grossly overpowered rounds (by comparison the modern M16 round is practically a .22!). SMGs like the Thompson and MP40 fired short pistol rounds and were designed as close-in trench-clearing weapons. And they were both heavy, complex weapons to manufacture. Bolt-action Mausers could be turned out by the millions!

[Krautman]

Dandelion, are you sure no real "Jäger" units existed? I'd say BFC did quite a bit of research, and they surely wouldn't include a fictional kind of squad (they fear the wrath of the grogs!). Also, i remember reading that at the start of their summer offensive in 1942, the germans had equipped some units with slightly more smgs (iirc, one battalion per regiment?), realizing close combat played an important role in russia. However, that book maybe wasn't too good -there actually was a number of typos and grammatical errors, though maybe due to the translation.

About combat distances- In the german military they tell you (well, they told me so in 1999, maybe the G36 has increased effective rifle range) most firefights happen at 200m+ since WWII. Yet CM simulates an assault, not a usual day at the front with soldiers sitting 200-500m apart in trenches firing a few bullets per hour at each other. Thus, the actual CM combat distance decreases.

[John D Salt]

Originally posted by MikeyD:

It wasn't until postwar that analysis of battles brought up the conclusion that the optimal infantry weapon would be medium range high rate of fire. [snips]

True, but in this case "postwar" means "post-World War One".

The fact that typical service rifle cartridges were over-powered was obvious to the Germans in the aftermath of WW1, and the Russians developed the Avtomat Fedorov, the first selective-fire intermediate-calibre shoulder weapon, as early as 1916.

All the best,

John.

[Gary T]

Dandelion, are you sure no real "Jäger" units existed? I'd say BFC did quite a bit of research, and they surely wouldn't include a fictional kind of squad (they fear the wrath of the grogs!).

He's right, they're were no units equipped as such. Same goes for the GJ squads. Unusually the 1941 sqauds are correct. It was brought up in CMBO and CMBB when they were first released but was completely ignored. Most of the gamers weren't bothered either as is gave them 'cool' units to use and pandered to their image of the German army bedecked with automatic weapons.

[flamingknives]

The GibergsJagers (sorry for the horrible misspelling) always confused me. If you are fighting in alpine conditions, then surely a rifle would be far superior, if more cumbersome.

The trouble with squad TO&Es is that they vary considerably, especially in veteran units, and also on a day-to-day basis. AIUI, the British (if you'll excuse the divergance to make a point) kept SMGs (or machine carbines) in reserve until required, when they would be issued to front line troops. There are pictures of the Italian campaign where whole sections carry SMGs. I see no reason to suspect that the same might not hold true for German and Soviet units, but I don't know specifically. Having each section having a random allotment of SMGs etc, regardless of the situation would be more than most gamers would care to put up with. As it is the leadership attributes and random PPsH upgrades stretch things a bit too much.