German SMG usage

[Michael Dorosh]

Sten Gun issue in the Canadian Army in NW Europe included several extras carried by the quartermaster sergeants. As flamingpicky points out, they were issued out for special missions.

One such mission was the crossing of the Albert Canal in Sep 1944. A handpicked section of 10 men loaded up with Stens and a Bren - no rifles - and crossed hand over hand across a bare pipe hanging from a damaged lock gate to create a bridgehead for the entire 5th Brigade. There was indeed a firefight on the far end.

This can't be replicated in CM thus far, but does indicate that SMG heavy squads not only had their uses, but were actually employed on at least one occasion.

The Sergeant in charge of the section was nominated for the VC, but had it downgraded by FM Montgomery to a well-earned DCM instead.

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Krautman:

Dandelion, are you sure no real "Jäger" units existed? I'd say BFC did quite a bit of research, and they surely wouldn't include a fictional kind of squad (they fear the wrath of the grogs!). Also, i remember reading that at the start of their summer offensive in 1942, the germans had equipped some units with slightly more smgs (iirc, one battalion per regiment?), realizing close combat played an important role in russia. However, that book maybe wasn't too good -there actually was a number of typos and grammatical errors, though maybe due to the translation.

About combat distances- In the german military they tell you (well, they told me so in 1999, maybe the G36 has increased effective rifle range) most firefights happen at 200m+ since WWII. Yet CM simulates an assault, not a usual day at the front with soldiers sitting 200-500m apart in trenches firing a few bullets per hour at each other. Thus, the actual CM combat distance decreases.

Quite sure K. I don't think this is a lack of research issue tho. To avoid speculation I simply note that I don't know or understand why the J and GJ squads look like this.

The German army operated by K.St.N. tables (same as TOE or WE or TEG). Any unit had such a table, and would be resupplied according to it, receiving no other equipment than the K.St.N. authorised from WK. If the men somehow got a hold of other types of equipment - say an abnormal amount of smgs - they would receive no ammunition, spare parts etc for these items, thus be unable to use them for very long. Same goes for captured equipment etc.

The number of K.St.N. tables is quite overwhelming, but fortunately the J and GJ used only a handful. Namely the 132 series, with appendices.

There were alot of special solutions - units issued with captured stocks of rifles, vehicles etc. But these are rare among regular army units, found primarily among security forces and paramilitary units, and Waffen SS. Such exceptions, however miniscule, had to be confirmed with a K.St.N. table (labeeld fg, or freie gliederung, but using the standard number of that unit K.St.N.), since the unit concerned had no other way of actually making sure that the equipment and supplies it needed travelled from producer/stocks all the way through the chain of supply, to their unit.

German units also stole a lot, from eachother and from the supply chain. They used false reporting, usually referred to as Schwarzbestand (black stock, to non-Germans). In Stalingrad, for example, the 6th Army officially ran out of several hundred types of supply stocks several weeks before they actually did so, because these black stocks, found at every division as it turned out, were emptied. Still, while enabling divisions to keep precious stock (e.g. securing delivery of increased amounts of AFVs by false reporting of AFVs in stock as "lost" etc), and to accumulate emergency supply stocks, they could not get a hold of equipment alien to the unit.

So apart from the odd single man or small unit in temporary posession of odd equipment, it is fairly simple to find out what Germans units were equipped with.

There was a mass issuing of submachineguns starting in 1942 and indeed this was because their value as close combat weapons had been realised in the massive urban battles in the east. Initially the Germans regarded them as self defence weapons only. So your source seems to be accurate. The issuing increased the smg count to two per squad (in 1940, we will recall, it was one per platoon), which across the entire army of course meant the issuing of quite a few weapons. In the same change, most types of assault squads were (supposed to be) issued two lmgs per squad.

No squads were equipped solely with smgs tho, the first such appear in experimental types of units in the Reserve army in late 44 and onward, none belonging to the J or GJ. As has been pointed out, the smg was particularly impotent in the alpine environment.

Standard combat range in large scale conventional armed conflict post Korea, in regions resembling Europe, is difficult to surmise. Fortunately there haven't been any. But weapons are now adapted to mechanised warfare either way, with infantry MCV borne and dismonting for assault only. Light weight, high suppression, small size, lots of ammo.

Cheerio

Dandelion

[JonS]

Originally posted by Gary T:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Dandelion, are you sure no real "Jäger" units existed? I'd say BFC did quite a bit of research, and they surely wouldn't include a fictional kind of squad (they fear the wrath of the grogs!).

He's right, they're were no units equipped as such. Same goes for the GJ squads. Unusually the 1941 sqauds are correct. It was brought up in CMBO and CMBB when they were first released but was completely ignored. Most of the gamers weren't bothered either as is gave them 'cool' units to use and pandered to their image of the German army bedecked with automatic weapons. </font>

[Dandelion]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

This can't be replicated in CM thus far, but does indicate that SMG heavy squads not only had their uses, but were actually employed on at least one occasion.

[/QB]

I agree they certainly had their uses, I didn't mean to rule them out entirely.

Among German recon patrols (detached from regular units) it was common to amass automatic weapons, squadleaders would lend their own if need be. Recon units would not normally engage at standard combat ranges. Their fights - normally unwanted for a recon unit - would typically be unavoidable point blank affaires. The recon unit would have a need to project maximum suppressive firepower in short time in order to extract, or even overcome, their ambushers. Thus needing automatic weapons more than anything else.

The same pooling of automatic weapons could occur among spearhead detachments formed by handpicked men among infantry units tasked with assualt. Such detachments were common and we se a lot of pooling e.g. among units in dawn of the Ardennes offensive. Not only smgs but lmgs as well, and handgrenades. Again there was a need for point blank firepower, but this time in the assault role.

By substandard combat weapon I meant standard range of engagement. At which ranges they were useless. But then again squadleaders were not meant to participate in the firefight at standard ranges, but to direct and prioritize the volumes of fire projected by their squads. So no loss if they had smgs. In the game we might have enjoyed the benefit of a squadleader occupied with directing fire, not simply suffering the loss of his firepower, at longer ranges. But that all is just another small part of the infantry perspective on combat in the game, of which I have so very vainly been a partisan, for so very long.

Yours truly

Dandelion

[David I]

I didn't write that ****ing ****, so send your corrections to someone who cares.

Michael is a potty mouth.

Michael is a potty mouth.

DavidI