Fought to a -DRAW-

[Duriel Krugaire]

I have been doing all the scenarios, I think I have done them all as Allies vs AI. I am wondering about the scoring system. On these operations, I take over the whole map and destroy most all of the enemy. I usually do not search out every single man and finish him off. And I get a "Fought to a Draw" or "Minor Victory" when all the enemy vehicles are destroyed, 90% enemy wounded or killed. Is this right?

Is there an option in the scenario setup that controls the winning parameters?

[stikkypixie]

How much did men you lose?

[dieseltaylor]

Duriel

There is an old story of a king of Phyrrus who beat the Romans, the trouble was he was losing more than he could afford to win the battlefield.

Hence Phyrric victory.

If you lose more men [points] to kill the enemy than the points are available to win [flags and dead enemy] then a draw is very likely : )

[MikeyD]

Weeeelll... it does seem with some scenarios it practically takes an act of God to get any higher than 'minor victory' for one of the sides.

I'm not sure, but it seems that victory parameters are calculated somewhat differently from meeting engagement to probe to assault. In an assault the game may assume you've started with overwhelming superiority and if the opponent managed to just hold on by his fingernails he's rewarded for his valiant defense. The same game as a meeting engagement might've given a 'total victory' to the winning side.

[walpurgis nacht]

Don't stress as much about losing infantry, avoid losing any vehicles and that will help greatly.

[Generaloberst Guderian]

It takes more than a valiant defense, you have to really put up a damn good fight to get a Major Victory in an assualt operation. I record all of my scores. Take this AAR from the Siege of Schloss Klessin as an example:

(I was playing Germans. Numbers given in the "German/Soviet" format)

OK 143/315

Casualties 149/932

KIA 40/251

4 AFVs destroyed, 1 Lost

Flags Held 700/200

Casualty Points 4939/1360

78% vs 22% Final Ratio Major Victory

As you can see, just by doing quick math, I lost 52% of my entire force, and what was left was some infantry barely holding on and low on ammunition, so it was not one of those heroic and flawless engagements. In fact, my morale was so low that the ceasefire button was depressed for the last three turns or so. The real conclusion came from the casualties I inflicted upon the enemy...which were fairly tremendous. Despite those even, he still had more than 2:1 superiority in the final stages of the fight, but my guess is that his morale gave out, as the battle ended prematuraly with a favorable cease fire.

The moral of the story is that you can take heavy casualties, so long as the casualties occur over a long period of time, and so long as the kill/loss ratio is fairly high. In my case a 6.25:1 kill/loss ratio was able to bring about a victory by cease fire while losing more than half my troops. You'll need a higher or lower ratio, depending on how well your force holds up.

[Mad Russian]

There may well be a point bonus in the scenario, for one side or the other, that is tilting the results as well.

[Duriel Krugaire]

Thanks for the comments. The operation was "Return to Borisov". I checked the setup and it was a "assault", I guess that is why I didn't get more decisive victory report. I didn't record the ending numbers, although I could replay the last few rounds and look at them again.

It was a pretty good battle, I had few losses and took over the whole map with only a few german troops remaining.

Also a similar situation happened in another following operation, but I cannot remember the name, it is on my home computer.

[Peregrine]

Progress across the map in the operation timeframe determines the victory level in assault operations.

It doesn't matter how many casualties you inflict or take unless one side is decimated so badly they surrender.

[Duriel Krugaire]

Peregine, your comment contradicts the discussion on this thread. I had the whole map under control of several tanks and companies of men. The germans were decimated, I got a minor victory!!!

[Matthias]

if u decimated hes forces he only lost 1/10th of hes force, hardy enough to make victory certain for you

[Duriel Krugaire]

Matthias, your comments are drivel, please bugger off.

[Peregrine]

I contradict what everyone else said but I don't think they realise you were talking about an Assult Operation. If you are talking about "operations" not "Battles" then I am right.

Static Operations are decided by victory points for killing stuff just like battles but ...

Victory levels in assault and advance operations are decided by how quickly you get to the end of the operation map (or how far you progress if you don't make it). Killing the enemy only influences the result by (a) making it easier to advance and ( if the AI morale gets below a certain level due to casualties it may surrender meaning the games ends (I said may as scenarios designers can do things to help stop a side surrending).

It is very hard to gauge how well you are going in these operation types unless the it is very specific about your timeframes. If you got minor victory you didn't force the enemy to surrender (I said earlier "decimated so badly they surrender." not just decimated) and needed to reach the end of the map in an earlier battle to get a better result.

[Matthias]

charming.

[Duriel Krugaire]

Peregine..

We were talking about Operations, and the type of battle was "assault", so i think what you describe may be the reason. Maybe I'll replay the "operation" after changing the battle type to say "probe" and see if the outcome is the same.

Matthias...

"Decimate" means almost everyone, not 1/10th. I would say 95% is decimated.

Thanks for your comments

[Neutral Party]

Originally decimation was an extreme punishment inflicted on Roman Legions for being very naughty. It involved the execution of every tenth man. Nowadays it is often misused, as you have done, to denote the killing or destruction of a large proportion. Anal retentives like me, and presumably Matthias, find this insufferably annoying. Moreover, requesting an anal retentive to bugger off can often have unfortunate consequences.

[yuvuphys]

Except that language changes, as do the meaning of words, and the word has multiple definitions now, such that it wasn't misused...

[Matthias]

"Except that language changes" ??? really? thats just ejhkse sefjkfhns. sefkjhfse eklhsl (ps you can only read that if you have kept up with the sudden language change). Decimate has only one meaning, it literally means "to kill one out of ten,"

[Blazing 88's]

Anal retentives.

he he ha ha... you said anal... he he ha ha.

[yuvuphys]

Originally posted by Matthias:

"Except that language changes" ??? really? thats just ejhkse sefjkfhns. sefkjhfse eklhsl (ps you can only read that if you have kept up with the sudden language change). Decimate has only one meaning, it literally means "to kill one out of ten,"

Um, yeah, that was real brilliant. Good to know you can be resonable. Comparing modern English to English in, say, the 10th century...well...apples and oranges. You know, back when 'man' was written 'wer' or 'tree' written 'treow'. And you're trying to compare an even older Roman word to a modern English word.

But, just to make you feel better, here's Webster's opinion, who I think is a little more qualifed than you: "decimate 1: to select by lot and kill every tehnth man of 2: to destroy a large part of".

Looks like two meanings to me.

[tar]

Well, in fact the usage panel from the American Heritage Book of English Usage (1996) reports that 66% of panel members had no objections to the expanded meaning of killing a large number of. Only 26%, though, found the expansion to inanimate objects to be acceptable usage.

The OED (Oxford English Dictionary) lists four word senses, the first two of which are labeled obsolete:

1. To exact a tenth or a tithe from; to tax to the amount of one-tenth. Obs. In Eng. Hist., see DECIMATION 1.

1656 in BLOUNT Glossogr. 1657 MAJOR-GEN. DESBROWE Sp. in Parlt. 7 Jan., Not one man was decimated but who had acted or spoken against the present government. 1667 DRYDEN Wild Gallant II. i, I have heard you are as poor as a decimated Cavalier. 1670 PENN Lib. Consc. Debated Wks. 1726 I. 447 The insatiable Appetites of a decimating Clergy. 1738 NEAL Hist. Purit. IV. 96 That all who had been in arms for the king..should be decimated; that is pay a tenth part of their estates. a1845 [see DECIMATED].

2. To divide into tenths, divide decimally. Obs.

1749 SMETHURST in Phil. Trans. XLVI. 22 The Chinese..are so happy as to have their Parts of an Integer in their Coins, &c. decimated.

3. Milit. To select by lot and put to death one in every ten of (a body of soldiers guilty of mutiny or other crime): a practice in the ancient Roman army, sometimes followed in later times.

1600 J. DYMMOK Treat. Ireland (1843) 42 All..were by a martiall courte condemned to dye, which sentence was yet mittigated by the Lord Lieutenants mercy, by which they were onely decimated by lott. 1651 Reliq. Wotton. 30 In Ireland..he [Earl of Essex] decimated certain troops that ran away, renewing a peece of the Roman Discipline. 1720 OZELL Vertot's Rom. Rep. I. III. 185 Appius decimated, that is, put every Tenth Man to death among the Soldiers. 1840 NAPIER Penins. War VI. XXII. v. 293 The soldiers could not be decimated until captured. 1855 MACAULAY Hist. Eng. IV. 577 Who is to determine whether it be or be not necessary..to decimate a large body of mutineers?

4. transf. a. To kill, destroy, or remove one in every ten of. b. rhetorically or loosely. To destroy or remove a large proportion of; to subject to severe loss, slaughter, or mortality.

1663 J. SPENCER Prodigies (1665) 385 The..Lord..sometimes decimates a multitude of offenders, and discovers in the personal sufferings of a few what all deserve. 1812 W. TAYLOR in Monthly Rev. LXXIX. 181 An expurgatory index, pointing out the papers which it would be fatiguing to peruse, and thus decimating the contents into legibility. 1848 C. BRONTË Let. in Mrs. Gaskell Life 276 Typhus fever decimated the school periodically. 1875 LYELL Princ. Geol. II. III. xlii. 466 The whole animal Creation has been decimated again and again. 1877 FIELD Killarney to Golden Horn 340 This conscription weighs very heavily on the Mussulmen..who are thus decimated from year to year. 1883 L. OLIPHANT Haifa (1887) 76 Cholera..was then decimating the country.

And finally, for the metrically inclined, one could consider it 1/10th of a spouse.

[Duriel Krugaire]

You guys have decimated my post. Now will you bugger off.

[Matthias]

i am sure we have used up more then 1/10th of your post (or haven't you learnt anything? )