I wish I had a supplytruck

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Stoffel:

The 250/11 is a halftrack with the Pzb 41 2,8mm gun on it.

The 251/11 is a telephone vehicle according to my list.

You had me flusterered there by calling for the inclusion of a vehicle that is already in the game . Just open the scenario editor, and at the default you can buy the 250/11.

Jaws - what Michael said.

Private Bluebottle - what is 'the market place'? Looking at sales figures, I think it is fair to say that 'the market place' asks for real-time first person shooters with Lara Croft's rear-end in them. So why is that not swinging in front of me when I roll my ISU152 into the German defenses. She would look cute with a tanker's cap too!

Seriously though - 3, or 4, or 5 people asking for it are not 'the market place'. So far BFC have done quite well out of designing what they think is a good game. IMO they change that approach at their peril.

The problem with asking people what they want is that they actually do not have a frigging clue what they want. That is the problem with focus groups and market research. If you want to break the mould with your product, 'the market place' is going to give you bugger all help in figuring out how to do it.

[ August 25, 2003, 06:01 AM: Message edited by: Andreas ]

[Wisbech_lad]

Kitchen vehicles.

Mmmm. I want kitchen vehicles in CMAK serving biccies and brew ups. CW troops get automatic level up of experience if within command radius of tea truck.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by Wisbech_lad:

Kitchen vehicles.

Mmmm. I want kitchen vehicles in CMAK serving biccies and brew ups. CW troops get automatic level up of experience if within command radius of tea truck.

Ah yes. Nothing like a cuppa to soothe the nerves. 'There'll be Stukas over - the vale of tebourba - tomorrow when I have my tea.' I think those were the lyrics?

The word 'tea' must be one of those that divide US and British English. I only learned about a year ago that for quite a few people in the UK, to 'have my tea' means to have your evening meal. I think. That after spending five years in this country - I am a slow learner, I admit.

[SgtMuhammed]

Well you know the Brits. They think just because the language is named after them that they can use it however they want.

Bloody confusing at times.

[Andreas]

Originally posted by sgtgoody (esq):

Well you know the Brits. They think just because the language is named after them that they can use it however they want.

Bloody confusing at times.

They labour under a similar misconception WRT the game of cricket. As can be seen as I write this...

[flamingknives]

I'd like to see supply trucks, or at least some way of separating ammo from firer.

As it currently stands if one of your weapons team is hit two metres from where you end up, you lose that ammo, nonwithstanding the fact that it is practically within arms reach.

Guns and mortars have their mobility severly restricted because it's always assumed that they're carrying 50+ rounds of ammo with them.

And then you have the examples of the 3" mortar in CMBO: three men with the highest ammo loadout in the game for a medium mortar. Why? The load given assumed that there would be a Carrier to cart it about in.

Plus there are some reports of battles that note ammo resupply under fire.

[Stoffel]

Andreas:

the game has a 250/11 but with a 20mm gun!

while most of the resources I have speak about a PzB41 28 mm gun which is something very different

Henk

[Jaws]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jaws:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Andreas Replenishing ammo under fire was done, but probably was not the chosen method to do so. There is an instance in the book on Stug Brigade 276 mentioning it. But it can well be mentioned because it was so unusual? It exposes crew to enemy fire, so it is quite risky.

And how would you describe a Stum Tiger?? It is also modelled. I don't see the problem, when they put it in the game and we can choose if we want it or not. And if you play a ladder or tourney they always have some rules to keep the ladder or tourney attractive. </font>

[Sergei]

Originally posted by Stoffel:

Andreas:

the game has a 250/11 but with a 20mm gun!

while most of the resources I have speak about a PzB41 28 mm gun which is something very different

Henk

Isn't that the sPzB41 which was a "taper bore" gun, so that the ammo caliber is really 28mm, but the other end of the gun barrel is 20mm?

[flamingknives]

The 250/11 has the taper-bore gun. Check its data screen. Failing that, look at the ammo load out - it's all tungsten.

[Stoffel]

the ammo indeed is all t rounds and the unit window says 20 mm

I also checked for the support weapons and the 28mm gun also has 20 mm in its unit window with the same armor penetrationchart

looks like BFC used two standards which fooled me

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Wisbech_lad:

Kitchen vehicles.

Mmmm. I want kitchen vehicles in CMAK serving biccies and brew ups. CW troops get automatic level up of experience if within command radius of tea truck.

Capital suggestion! Only, instead of an experience increase, which—admit it—wouldn't make sense, they get a one level boost in fitness. And yes, a new level of "Superhuman" would be attainable, but only for Ozzies. (It pains me to say a kind word about Ozzies, but there it is.)

Personally, I am plumping for Portablebrothelwagens. Being within range of one of these actually lowers fitness, but returns morale back to 100%.

Michael

[Private Bluebottle]

Originally posted by Andreas:

Private Bluebottle - what is 'the market place'? Looking at sales figures, I think it is fair to say that 'the market place' asks for real-time first person shooters with Lara Croft's rear-end in them. So why is that not swinging in front of me when I roll my ISU152 into the German defenses. She would look cute with a tanker's cap too!

Sorry, I'm not into big bums. However, that aside, the marketplace for CM is us, all potential and real purchasers. You're talking about the total gaming marketplace, a much bigger superset who's taste unfortunately tends to run to big boobs and bummed female action heros which they can fantasise about unhealthily (as against those who have healthy fantasies about tanks and guns, with all those Freudian phallic symbols...sorry, got a bit carried away there! )

Seriously though - 3, or 4, or 5 people asking for it are not 'the market place'. So far BFC have done quite well out of designing what they think is a good game. IMO they change that approach at their peril.

Surely responding to what your market desires can never be perilous for a company which is providing a game like CM? If it was, then surely capitalism must have been a failure?

The problem with asking people what they want is that they actually do not have a frigging clue what they want. That is the problem with focus groups and market research. If you want to break the mould with your product, 'the market place' is going to give you bugger all help in figuring out how to do it.

Initially but once a market has been created for a product then woebetide a producer, say of icecream who doesn't respond to the request to add extra flavours to their icecream.

[ August 25, 2003, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Private Bluebottle ]

[Michael Emrys]

But if we can descend from Cloud Cuckoo Land to terra firma for a moment, just what kind of a "market share" are we talking about in relation to the present question? I mean, just how many potential purchasers are going to find the presence or absence of resupply trucks a make or break issue on whether they decide to get CM or not? Five? Twenty? A hundred? You mean there might actually be a hundred people that are going to give CM a pass because they can't find resupply trucks in it?

Look, I'm not arguing that there should never, ever be supply trucks in CM. I think it would be a fine idea provided that they can be worked in in a way that is historically authentic. I just don't see it as a high priority compared to any number of other issues that urgently need to be settled, preferably in the next iteration of the game engine and not put off so that Charles et al can devote time to supply trucks.

Michael

[Private Bluebottle]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

But if we can descend from Cloud Cuckoo Land to terra firma for a moment, just what kind of a "market share" are we talking about in relation to the present question? I mean, just how many potential purchasers are going to find the presence or absence of resupply trucks a make or break issue on whether they decide to get CM or not? Five? Twenty? A hundred? You mean there might actually be a hundred people that are going to give CM a pass because they can't find resupply trucks in it?

I think its more a matter of how many followup their purchase of the game with the next version or supplement to the game, rather than their initial purchasing decision.

If they feel the methodology is unrealistic or they feel that their concerns aren't being listened to, you don't think there may be a danger that followon market might be put off?

Look, I'm not arguing that there should never, ever be supply trucks in CM. I think it would be a fine idea provided that they can be worked in in a way that is historically authentic. I just don't see it as a high priority compared to any number of other issues that urgently need to be settled, preferably in the next iteration of the game engine and not put off so that Charles et al can devote time to supply trucks.

Michael

I believe I suggested that its addressing might well be placed on a lower priority compared to other factors. I'm not demanding that it should be done, "NOW!" Rather I and I suspect others are suggesting it might be a worthwhile something to include in a later release/new version of the game, perhaps CMX2, I believe its called?

[ August 25, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Private Bluebottle ]

[Panzer32]

250/5 mess(kitchen vehicle)

we definately need one of these

(I need a hungry smile)

[gibsonm]

Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wisbech_lad:

Kitchen vehicles.

Mmmm. I want kitchen vehicles in CMAK serving biccies and brew ups. CW troops get automatic level up of experience if within command radius of tea truck.

Capital suggestion! Only, instead of an experience increase, which—admit it—wouldn't make sense, they get a one level boost in fitness. And yes, a new level of "Superhuman" would be attainable, but only for Ozzies. (It pains me to say a kind word about Ozzies, but there it is.)

Michael </font>

[Michael Emrys]

Originally posted by Private Bluebottle:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Emrys:

But if we can descend from Cloud Cuckoo Land to terra firma for a moment, just what kind of a "market share" are we talking about in relation to the present question? I mean, just how many potential purchasers are going to find the presence or absence of resupply trucks a make or break issue on whether they decide to get CM or not? Five? Twenty? A hundred? You mean there might actually be a hundred people that are going to give CM a pass because they can't find resupply trucks in it?

I think its more a matter of how many followup their purchase of the game with the next version or supplement to the game, rather than their initial purchasing decision.</font>

[Cabron66]

Originally posted by flamingknives:

I'd like to see supply trucks, or at least some way of separating ammo from firer.

As it currently stands if one of your weapons team is hit two metres from where you end up, you lose that ammo, nonwithstanding the fact that it is practically within arms reach.

Guns and mortars have their mobility severly restricted because it's always assumed that they're carrying 50+ rounds of ammo with them

I don't know if anybody else thought about this one. It would have been difficult to spot surrounded as it was with all the fascinating talk of battlefield prostitution and herbal beverages. I think it's actually an interesting point which leads me to a question. Is weight actually figured into the movement speeds of troops? I mean I've never been on a battlefield, but I used to fight forest fires and I know that there were more than a few times when I just about chucked my gear and ran because running with it was out of the question. I'm not asking for changes in any product (past, present or future), but rather some thoughts on this. I think it's a pretty crucial part of the whole picture. I mean, troops need equipment to fight effectively and in most cases the more the better, but at what price. For example, if I were on Omaha beach I would feel pretty naked rushing up the beach with a standard load out completely cut off from ressuply, but I would definitely feel worse struggling across sand, loaded to the eyeballs, while knowing how easy a target I was for even the worst shooter.

Long story short, it seems like an interesting point. What do you guys think?

[Michael Emrys]

Cabron,

It appears to me that weight is accounted for in two different ways in the game. One is which of the three speed classes—fast, medium, or slow—a unit is assigned to. The second is how quickly it tires if compelled to run or perform some other strenuous exercise.

For instance, if I recall correctly (a big if), Schreck teams are rated as fast, but tire faster than ordinary infantry if they run.

Michael

[ August 26, 2003, 05:09 AM: Message edited by: Michael Emrys ]

[Cabron66]

True enough and good example. The weight is simulated in those two ways. Mortar teams heave across the battlefield while sharpshooters breeze through the trees. However, do these attributes change or are they constant? Does a unit with low ammo move at the same speed as a unit with full or even extra ammo. If I throw on all kinds of tasty treats like AT rockets, explosive charges, grenade bundles or gammon bombs does the unit slow down? I don't think it does, but my aim here is not to suggest improvements to the game, but rather to debate the importance of encumbrance on the battlefield and to address the issue of separating ammo from man. I think a supply truck roaming around like a sort of WWII Dickie Dee is a bit much, but the topic did put me to thinkin' bout a few things. Like scavenging ammo from casualties (and not just from those in the same platoon) or a unit's chances of "sneaking" when the creaking of their poor little knees and ankles must surely give them away.

[Michael Emrys]

I think in the game all this is greatly simplified. I.e., a mortar team is always slow even if they have shot off all their ammo and abandoned their tube. Once a snail, always a snail. But I admit that I haven't looked for this, so I could be mistaken.

I don't think the extra weight has any effects other than the ones I mentioned. For instance, I just watched the crew of a German lIG 18 push it up a hill at move speed, the same speed they would move it on the flats, and not get tired. So it looks like there have been some simplifications here too.

Michael

[flamingknives]

Of course, it would be nice if we could have crew abandon their gun/mortar/HMG to run and hide in a slit trench, only to emerge when the barrage has lifted in order to re-crew their weapon.

[YankeeDog]

Weapons teams (Mortars, guns etc.) become 'fast' movers once they abandon their weapons.

As far as I can tell, ammo load does not affect units' speed at all. Movement speed and fatigue rate seems to be set in stone as "fast", "medium", "slow", "very slow" or "immobile", and with the exceptions of teams abandoning heavy weapons and captured units, a unit's speed does not change no matter what they are carrying in the way of ammo.

Weapons teams will, however, drop ammo as they loose squad members if they are moving. Infantry squads do not loose small arms ammo, but they will drop "specials" as they take caualties.

So assuming equal fitness, a 7-man Pioner S-squad, loaded down with 50% extra ammo, and given 3 demo charges and 4 Rifle Grenades (the max load), moves just as fast (and tires at the same rate) as a SMG squad that's almost out of ammo and so is carrying almost nothing but its MP40s and a few grenades.

It's not a huge issue for me, but ultimately it would be nice if CM incorporated some kind of 'variable encumbrance' modeling so that heavily loaded squads moved more slowly and tired more quickly.

This would also help solve certain other minor issues I have with the infantry squad model. For example, I seriously doubt that the Volkgrenadier Heavy SMG squads, (6 MP40s, 2MG42s, and a *whopping* 15 ammo points in CMBB) really often went into battle with enough ammo for less than 2.5 minutes of disciplined fire. I think it much more likely that the Heavy SMG squads simply carried more weight per man then their LMG-less brothers, and as such probably weren't as quick on their feet. Since these squads carried all the long-range fire assets of the platoon, they probably spent most of their time as the 'base of fire', so the additonal weight wasn't too much of a liability, while the additional ammo probably came in quite handy.

You can kind of get around this right now if you're designing a scenario by giving 'heavier' squads additional ammo, but reducing their fitness level to "weakened" to reflect the additional weight. The problem here is that the squad doesn't 'lighten up' once its shot off most of its ammo.

Who knows. . . maybe for CMX2.

Cheers,

YD

[flamingknives]

And, of course, the MG42s, firing at range, somehow chew up the squads supplies of 9mm parabellum, leaving the SMGs in the lurch, but that's another issue.