Other games like SC

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

I have a feeling I will like CM more so as it evolves. My past experiences with it really have little to do with most of the game actually.

The WEGO system is perhaps the dominant reason I will even keep watching.

Real time doesn't mean everything to a lot of us in spite of the RTS craze.

I personally think I would enjoy more so a game where I can take 5 minutes or 5 hours to do my turn, but in the end, it has to be done in the dark as to what the opponent is doing.

And therein lies it's strength, no hi tech computer or fancy software will allow me to gamey the game. I have to actually plan well or watch the turn resolve with me getting slammed.

So currently for me, it is about CM gaining a better and better interface for myself.

I am thinking CMAK or probably CM2 will be a deciding factor for me.

[J P Wagner]

Well as a die hard turn based guy who runs from RTS as if being chased by Mothra, I have enjoyed the CM series quite a bit...it is basically turn based and so the frenetic click fests, that many RTS games are, is avoided.....

[Kwazydog]

One of the huge benifits of the WEGO (and all turned based) system over RTS in my opinion is PBEM. I know that is what attracted me to CM in the first place...I dont have time to spend an hour playing a game live but if I can do a turn in 5-10 minutes and get back to work thats great

Dan

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

Guys WEGO IS categorically turn based

It is not something OTHER than turn based hehe.

It is you plot and I plot and then we resolve.

It is fixed time increments and quite definitely not non turn based eh.

A turn by any flavour is still a turn in the end.

There is no "REAL" in real time, and therein lies the weakness in all those that think so highly of it.

In "REAL" time 1 minute is precisely 1 minute of MY time. So in 1 minute you get one real world minute.

Not 100 years in 1 minute or 1 decade in 1 minute or 1 year in 1 minute or 1 month in 1 minute or 1 week in 1 minute or 1 hour in 1 minute eh.

Telling me a game is "pausable" doesn't suddenly make that "REAL" suddenly more "REAL".

Get the point all you "REAL" time advocates?

1 Minute is only 1 minute long in "REAL" time.

Grand Strategy in "REAL" time is dumb. There is not point in it, certainly no point in calling it "REAL".

WWII Online, now that is real time. Can be potentially real dull, and potentially real frustrating showing up after an hour march just to get shot. But that is also potentially "real"istic.

[J P Wagner]

"Grand Strategy in "REAL" time is dumb. There is not point in it, certainly no point in calling it 'REAL'".

Point well taken...HOI anyone?

[Kwazydog]

Les, totally agreed

I have never been a huge fan of 'RTS wargames' like Close Combat as the player usually ends up overloaded. I know people say that its more 'real' becuase its real time but that has never worked for me...in real life thats what squad, platoon and company commanders are for and AI cannot take thier place...at least not yet.

Something I would be interested in seeing is a RTS game similar to the old computer ambush, where you just control one squad Im not sure if it would work or not, but it would be interesting to see the possabilities.

Dan

[Panzer39]

Originally posted by J P Wagner:

"Grand Strategy in "REAL" time is dumb. There is not point in it, certainly no point in calling it 'REAL'".

Point well taken...HOI anyone?

HOI now is not all that bad guys. If you haven't tried it with the new patches and CORE mods than your really missing out on some fun. As far as management goes, that's a personal preference. I can handle HOI very easily but would be lost in some of the more complex turn based games. btw how real can any game be? Real time just means that both you and the AI/human player are making moves at the same time. That's a lot more real than the chess game played out in SC. I'm not knocking SC, I love the game to death. But don't knock "real" time games because you can't handle them. Try Medieval total war for great turn based/real time fun. Rome Total war comes out next year and ranks number 1 on my must buy list.

[ November 13, 2003, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: Panzer39 ]

[imported_Rannug]

Hi Panzer 39!

Patches I do know what it is but this CORE mod...what's that.

Are you up for a new SC game?

[Moon]

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:

Guys WEGO IS categorically turn based

It is not something OTHER than turn based hehe.

It is you plot and I plot and then we resolve.

It is fixed time increments and quite definitely not non turn based eh.

A turn by any flavour is still a turn in the end.

There is no "REAL" in real time, and therein lies the weakness in all those that think so highly of it.

In "REAL" time 1 minute is precisely 1 minute of MY time. So in 1 minute you get one real world minute.

Not 100 years in 1 minute or 1 decade in 1 minute or 1 year in 1 minute or 1 month in 1 minute or 1 week in 1 minute or 1 hour in 1 minute eh.

Telling me a game is "pausable" doesn't suddenly make that "REAL" suddenly more "REAL".

Get the point all you "REAL" time advocates?

1 Minute is only 1 minute long in "REAL" time.

Grand Strategy in "REAL" time is dumb. There is not point in it, certainly no point in calling it "REAL".

WWII Online, now that is real time. Can be potentially real dull, and potentially real frustrating showing up after an hour march just to get shot. But that is also potentially "real"istic.

By this definition CM *is* REAL time, as 1 second during an action phase equals 1 second in real life. Most other RTS are *not* REAL time, but "continuous time", which is a difference (and in fact you will notice that more and more RTS are coming out with pause options, simply because people slowly catching on that for anything except small battles or clickfests, pausing to issue orders is good.

Martin

[Liam]

to be honest with you I haven't seen any Wargames quite like SC out lately!

Some shareware stuff guys on the boards here have linked was closer than the stuff I've seen released. Third Reich I believe was close from the 90s<not absolutely sure on title, been awhile since I played it> High Command. Clash of Steel. I played a game people don't equate to SC in the 80s Storm Across Europe, although wasn't hex warfare was very similar.

SSI released a lot of games with hex warfare East to West Front. Very detailed some of them, more so than SC. You still didn't usually get much control over the bigger picture IMO. That was the economics, ability to DOW Nations, or seperate historic possabilities. HOI really isn't much like SC. It's quite different. It's about ten times the size and is very detailed, and I'm sure I'd love it but the fact is you simply can't play a game of HOI in a week, maybe 6 months...

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

Hmm I think I have finally found the "perfect" term for the RTS genre.

It was called "Real" time by mistake, what they meant was "Same" Time

[J P Wagner]

Originally posted by Panzer39:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by J P Wagner:

"Grand Strategy in "REAL" time is dumb. There is not point in it, certainly no point in calling it 'REAL'".

Point well taken...HOI anyone?

HOI now is not all that bad guys. If you haven't tried it with the new patches and CORE mods than your really missing out on some fun. As far as management goes, that's a personal preference. I can handle HOI very easily but would be lost in some of the more complex turn based games. btw how real can any game be? Real time just means that both you and the AI/human player are making moves at the same time. That's a lot more real than the chess game played out in SC. I'm not knocking SC, I love the game to death. But don't knock "real" time games because you can't handle them. Try Medieval total war for great turn based/real time fun. Rome Total war comes out next year and ranks number 1 on my must buy list. </font>

[Edwin P.]

HOI takes too long to play in one evening or even a week

However I does have two features that I really like;

1. The AI is customizable at the strategic level. In the past year the AI has really improved over what it started with.

2. The Events are customizable.

If Strategic Command had semi-historical random events it would really liven the game up and more accurately reflect the unpredictablity of war and how actions affected geopolitics in the era.

Example: 10% (1 in 10 games) when the UK DOW Ireland before USA enters the War;

Prime Minister,

The US ambassador has indicated that an invasion of Ireland would have severe political repucussions in the United States.

Should we:

1> Continue with our invasion plans (50% that Merchant Shipping to the UK drops by 50% for 4 Turns - if so - a popup reads - US Congress Repeals Lend Lease Support to the UK for 4 Months to Protest UK invasion of Ireland)

2> Delay our DOW until a more opportune time.(DOW against Ireland is canceled)

Question for HC: Are you considering random events/decision trees for SC2 - or is this concept not being considered?

[ November 13, 2003, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[kurt88]

Question for HC: Are you considering random events/decision trees for SC2 - or is this concept not being considered?

So you finally popped the big one he Edwin?

I sure hope he does.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Edwin P

Mr H should not answer your question. Of course, he is free to do as he wishes, but if it was me, I wouldn't answer.

Edwin P, you should know better. I read in your profile that you are an ERP Software Consultant. Then you should realize, that you have to be very careful how you answer a question like that, because of all it implies.

If he answers yes to the "random events/decision trees", he's either telling you he has already designed the feature or he has committed himself to doing it. Nows he's locked in, to something that during the coding or alpha testing process he may want to discard. And that doesn't even begin to address the issue of how he implements the concept, which would lead to comparisons with other designs, which you are doing already by your comparisons to HoI.

If he says no, because he has designed some alternative, he would have to give some idea of what his alternative is, again, committing himself to a specific design.

It would be the equivalent of one of your clients, asking you to committ yourself to a fixed bid on a project where you are not aware of all of the project details.

[Edwin P.]

Are you considering random events/decision trees for SC2

Consider:

1. "think carefully: to think carefully about something"

2. "weigh possibilities before deciding: to weigh the pros and cons of the situation before making a decision on a course of action"

Origin - " 14th century. Via French considérer from Latin considerare , of uncertain origin: probably formed from sidus “star,” the underlying idea being one of examining the stars carefully to divine the future."

[ November 14, 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Hubert Cater]

Originally posted by Edwin P.:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Are you considering random events/decision trees for SC2

</font>

[J P Wagner]

The last few Abbott and Costello exchanges made my day...

[Curry]

Yes, made my day too. Great answer by Mr. H.C.

[Edwin P.]

I agree. Great Answer.

[KDG]

His answer put a smile on my face.

[JerseyJohn]

I've been staring at the screen for six hours now trying to figure it out -- never has a single word been so profound!

[Iron Ranger]

Whaaa ??????????

[Les the Sarge 9-1]

Random events will be nice, but I would rather be able to just set up my own units as I please at the beginning of a game more.

Right now, I am beset by playing players who have often played a certain campaign perhaps to death, and thus enjoy a lot of "experience" over me.

But what if the opening positions of my units were not the way they were the lasttime you played me?

What if the Germans decided "to heck with Poland turn 1, I'm launching a sneak attack right now against France".

What if the Italians decided "I never get anywhere in Africa anyway, I am putting one of those armies in the attack on France".

Random events would be nice, but I think being unable to "know" where the opposition's units WILL be would be a perk for this game as well.

[Liam]

Some of the differences between HOI and SC I'd like to see implemented:

Say for instance in HOI, you can operate a individual "tank," that has certian level of uprgraded technologies for that tank. From a type of Engine, Suspension, MG setup, the type of armament for the Maingun. You can specifically research what you'd like, asign say 100 tanks under a certian commander in an attacking force, get a precise date and time when that attacking force arrives. The supply system is advanced including the use of oil, which for airplanes, ships, tanks, anything motorized is important... Even the leadership is advanced for each aspect of your WarMachine from Propaganda to military Commanders over the entire Nation...

You can stock up on supplies like Rubber, Oil, Coal, Ore. That way you've got the ability to wage war longer! Advanced systems of Strategic and tactical warfare that can ultimately guide your way through the game.

Some of the problems I ran into what the fact that cheesy old Russia would be a harder nation to defeat than taking the 'key's in Europe which I feel would've caused Political collaspe throughout the entire Nation. As I remeber people complained about a Siberian Province continueing on the war Effort. Some of the fun aspects, was that you could play China, Canada, etc... You could be any nation you want. You could basically rewrite history in that... And sorta Ahistorical with Tech sharing between Allies and the fact the AI is very inept you could expand beyond belief. I'm certian with house rules and a dedicated crew you could make the game HOI very very playable...

SC, has the appeal of a wargame you can sit down and actually finish 1v1.. Although I would like to see the ability of Axis & Allies, HOI, and other very popular MP Strategic/Wargames, whatever... more than 2 player... although part of the stability of the game is the two player. Although HOI has an advanced system of combat, you can fall asleep with it, it's not turned base. the way I had it setup, I forget if you can do turn based.

In SC, I would like to see a greater variation on the Unit-types, their capabilities, real life with these capabilities as well! Sorta now, it's unrealistic as the HOI AI system is that you can make Rockets into TOW missiles. Jets into F-17s, ATG tech and Tank tech was the only tech back that early on that was close to historical in SC. The map needs to be improved, the interface expanded, and with this the ability to further implement the new unit types. I like the fact that you can operate a unit that has some historical resemblance. Now it's hard to that in SC, what is historical truly? The Naval system is closer than any other part Unit wise, though maybe not amphibious aspects...

You make SC triple the map, add in about 10-15 unit types. Correct the way Jets-Rockets-Corps are used. Fact Corps are way too powerful. The real war actually didn't have many stalemates in comparison as you find in SC. Maybe Italy being the exception. The Germans maybe could've forced one on the Eastern Front...More or less though the weapons on the offensive, had the ability and the locations to hit 'always' to end th war at some point in realistic 'grounds'. SC has a long way to go, IMO to truly be my favourite Wargame of all time. Although she could be... People have to realize complexity doesn't mean anything. Axis & Allies is not very complex it's a boardgame, takes about the same time sometimes to finish a game as SC between steady players. HOI is based off a boardgame... Europa Universalis I was a converted wargame by a Swede...HOI really resembles it soooooo much in places you can tell he cut and pasted the the map/script/and other aspects.. It's been a dissappointment only because I guess I'm spoiled by other options. i.e. SC, is much easier to get a game going, with out ten trillion problems.