A Couple of Lists

[Desert Dave]

Well, we are pretty sure that SC2 will become a great reality... no doubt Hubert and/or Battlefront will be forthcoming with details when they are more certain as to what the game will entail, and so, while we are all being extremely PATIENT,

A couple of lists.

A) List 3 things, AND 3 things ONLY, that you absolutely HAVE TO HAVE in SC2... list these in order of preference and, please, no more than a couple lines of explanation!

List your 3 favorite Rock & Roll groups of all time... again, NO MORE than a couple lines of elaboration.

*********************

So, here we go:

A) What I would really REALLY like to see in SC2?

1) Battle of the Atlantic... as has been seriously discussed, this was CRITICAL to Britain's survival.

2) MUCH larger map... from Mississippi River to most of Scandanavia, and Persia in the East, down to mid-Africa or so.

3) SPECIAL EVENTS... everyone knows what this means... different games EVERY time you play, no matter against what or whom!

Favorite Rock Groups:

1) PINK FLOYD... "The Wall" is simply the best rock anthem, the best & most literate album ever!

2) THE DOORS... Morrison was a genuine Shaman, since a little psychotic and indifferent to "normal" affairs, as Neitzsche.

3) THE BEACH BOYS... Brian Wilson was THE GENIUS of the 60s... and he paid for it with his very heart & soul.

Well, I wonder if our shy & retiring board members (... like little lie-down-by-the-Lion, Lambs... have any opinions on these two innocent issues?...

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Things for SC 2

1) A Russo-Finnish Winter War (Yea, im still hoping) -This includes ALL of scandanavia being on the map

2) Battle of the Atlantic (I mean, come on, lets sea some carnage and strategy on the high seas!)

3) Yes, Imagine that, a MANNERHEIM Hq.!

Favourite Rock Bands:

1) Weezer

yea, i guess you could say its like Beatles with Modern Guitars, but not.

2) The Animals

Yes, 'THERE IIIIIIISS A HOOOOOUUUUSE IN NEEEEW ORLEEEEEANS'

3)

Tie between Coldplay and the FooFighters. -Yea, i know, theyre at opposite ends of the Rock Spectrum.

CvM (Listens to these bands while playing SC)

[ May 27, 2003, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Carl G. E. von Mannerheim ]

[SpitfireMarkX]

SC

1. Minor nations on there own, only some though, like Finland Canada Sweden.

2. More Naval.

3. A Battlefront Server.

Rockbands:

Rocks a little old but

1. Offspring

2. Nickleback

OVerall favorite Music

1. Tupac (dead for 7 years and STILL the best)

2. 50 Cent

3. Sean Paul

[Edwin P.]

1. Unpredicatable and more aggressive strategic AI. (Think German Sealion, UK takes Iraq, Japan invades Hawaii)coupled with a script writer for user designed campaigns/strategies.

2. Random Setups to spoil the easy kill stategy(Why do those 2 German Subs always start in the same hex in the North Atlantic?)

3. Better Tactical AI - Know when to hold, when to retreat.

[Wolfpack]

1: Ability to split alliances up. EG - I can play just the germans and let the AI control Italy or play Russia and leave the other Allies to the computer.

2: More space period, especially in the Atlantic. Hopefully the game will go world wide, but even if it stays in the same area, the Atlantic needs more room. Addition of a few shipping lanes to the south, perhaps an off map area to send German ships into the Indian Ocean which could affect the Allied sea route around Africa.

3: Better AI. Naturally. I know most of the people who still post here are all of you ladder guys, but I rarely have time for a good game against someone else, so I need to have a challenging AI. The AI needs to plan and coordinate attacks better, be less distracted by ancillary units and events. One thing that needs work is the AI's counterattacks. Currently it rarely makes a concerted counterattack, but instead will throw units in here and there and gives me plenty of time to shuffle units back and forth. This isn't to say I just want it to be more agressive...without improving the decisionmaking process about when and where to attack, more agressiveness just means more chances for me to trap and kill units. The naval AI definitely needs work.

1: Doors - Still the best

2: Tool - Incredable concert, and the music is better.

3: Glen Miller - The master of the big bands.

[Shaka of Carthage]

</font>

• SC II</font>
• Historical enhancements. SC Enhancements</font>
• Improved Economics. MPP+ System</font>
• Use of Manpower. (Still working on it)</font>

</font>

• (Some of us don't listen to Rock and Roll)</font>
• Joe Sample ... mood changes and memories.</font>
• War ... resentment against the world was strong.</font>
• Temptations ... my youth.</font>

[ May 25, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Shaka of Carthage ]

[jon_j_rambo]

1) Paratroops : will change breakthrus, supply cut-offs, & opens alot of potential new strategy.

2) Change intercept rules : kind of lame when your units must intercept. Produce a pop-up menu giving you the option to intercept

3) Naval Supply : It's dumb how a ship fights like crap in certain areas.

4) Beaches : Ports are too important right now.

Rock 'n Roll:

1) The King, Elvis Presley : The dude had it all. Sing, dance, slow songs, gospel, etc. Had bad management & hit the drugs a little hard in the latter days...which was part of those sorry movies, too bad. The new release of the #1 hits, actually was #1 for a couple of months. Elvis's music will never die. "Before anybody did, Elvis did it!"

2) Johnny Cash : American Icon & Legend. Pure country who actually lived his songs. Not like the new BS stuff.

3) Patsy Cline & Tammy Wynette : Maybe I'm biased to old Country, but these chicks could flat out sing. No back-ups, no bass drowning them out, & their song writers weren't good. Just imagine if Patsy didn't die in the plane wreck...how many more hits we'd have.

[JerseyJohn]

The Game:

1) Real Weather.

2) A real Battle of the Atlantic, including naval supply.

3) A realistic production schedule for units.

The Music.

1) The Platters.

2) Chicago

3) Agreed with Rambo, Patsy Cline, loved that lady, no voice like her's in the Universe.

Honorable mentions to Lena Horne, Ella Fitzgerald and Cass Elliot (like Cline she died too young), all great *** Lena's Stormy Weather is incomparable

Glen Miller picked by WolfPack another great choice though no slouch groups in any posting -- Never heard of the young guy's favorites but I'll trust their judgement.

Sorry for stretching your guideline, Immer, but the list goes from Heifitz to Rubenstein with the Jazz Greats like Miles Davis and nobody should be named on the same line with him -- Impossible to choose just 300.

[ May 25, 2003, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[disorder]

1. i too need real atlantic stuff. real ships, real transports, convoy supply lines,(mostly regular topic stuff that has been discussed to death)

2. more in-depth editor. dont need code, script, cheats,etc. need to be able to make more changes as one would see necessary.

3. automatic "quik-link" button to drudge report

havent listened to rock since "94, but here was the "A" list then:

1. BTO- get in the car and road trip music.no need for further comment.

2. CCR- bayou swampmusic--fogarty-oldies now..oldies then.

3. neugent- "wango tango" "cat scratch fever" why would you want anything else?

[ May 25, 2003, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: disorder ]

[Leopard]

1. Naval improvements including more hexes to allow for destroyer screens and decreased ability to track ships. Heavy seas effects (reduces action points/spotting/naval attack) similar to Marsh effect. Subs rated for surface (increased speed/spotting/detection) and submerged. Milk cows, longer build times.

1a. Add destroyers to complete the fleets and allow for more realistic naval action. Make transports more expensive and reduce their spotting to 0. Also, have their movement occur during opponents turn, allowing opponent to attack AND move afterwards. This will remove their gameyness.

2. Weather effects, especially at sea to affect spotting/action points, and on land to affect air operations

3. Improved Fog of War for unit identification.

1. Marillion

2. Yes

3. Porcupine Tree

[pzgndr]

Only three wishes, eh genie? While there are literally dozens of suggestions for enlarging the map, adjusting various combat values, and tweaking other items, I'd say these 3 are important for SC2:

1 - More realistic economic model. The game needs to better simulate Axis limitations at high tide in 1942 and Allied economic growth during the later years. There are two parts to this. One is to ensure resources reflect historical values, with either the single MPP or perhaps multiple resources. The other is to establish some force pool limits with either actual limits or perhaps manpower resources. Any WWII grognard looking for a reasonable simulation of the period needs to have the economic war modeled better.

2 - AI enhancements. While some players never play the AI, the majority do and expect it to be challenging. Hubert's fuzzy logic AI works very well and is aggressive, but some adjustments are needed. And it's got to address all theaters in SC2 - like the Med and North Africa, the Battle of the Atlantic, Norway and Sweden, and optional campaigns in Spain and Turkey.

3 - Campaign Editor enhancements. This really should be made more robust to handle more functions - like map editing, minor country setups, combat table values, etc. Depending on how flexible the AI is, perhaps with editable AI scripts, this could become a decent game design engine for a WWI or WWIII game.

And for Rock & Roll ...

ZZ Top, The Cars, and Meatloaf

OK, maybe not the greatest of all time, but I sure enjoy listening to their albums a bit more often than the others.

[Dan Fenton]

I want to make this clear up front. Strategic Command is one of the best computer games that I have ever played since I first got a computer 12-years ago. It is a masterful design that captures most of the essentials while being reasonably simple and very fun to play. To make a great game even greater, I would suggest:

1. An even better AI. The current AI is good is many ways and far better than in a lot of games that I have played. I do understand that this is also a very difficult thing to do. However there are some current holes in the AI, that could be improved, Axis able to conquer Norway, a possible Sea Lion before Russia, an Allied Mediterreanian strategy and others.

2. Create the possibility of a real naval war in the Atlantic. This is one of the few flaws in an otherwise great game. The Atlantic, as an area, is way too small compared to reality. German subs are way too easy to find and are generally destroyed in the first turn. Subs need a slower but hidden method of travel, like at speed two or less they are travelling submerged and are invisible to all. At speeds three and above they are considered on the surface and can be spotted. Subs also need to be randomly placed at start or player placed at start to prevent them from being automatically found and destroyed. All Axis offensive ships should be able to surface raid. Frankly they should be able to do MMP damage from any most location in the Atlantic also also. I would also like to see a coloring option to make it graphically clear on the screen where surface raiding areas are located. There could be about three different grades of surface raiding areas to represent the heaviness or lightness of convoy traffic. I would also suggest that Battleships not be able to attack subs. They ran from subs in real life. Battlecruisers should still be able to attack as they could also represent destroyer groups. The US and Canadian east coast should be removed from the game and replaced with some sort of force pool and port repair facilities box. There was no serious way that Germany could have conquered the US and this would shorten the long game when played as Axis.

3. Improve the UK position in the Mediterranean. I presume that the UK position has been deliberately weakened there to compensate for its current unrealistic advantages in the Atlantic. The UK needs an 8 or better strength port to supply and repair its ships and ground troops. The UK was better supplied than the Italians in the Med thoughout the war. There should be a full around the Horn transportation option for all UK units for both directions. Possibly, Iraq should be made a British minor ally at some random point in time. The UK needs to be permitted to surface raid against Italy with air or naval units in Malta.

4. Air Fleets need to be weakened and Armor units need to be strengthened. I would suggest that the strike and spotting range of Air Fleets be reduced by two or three hexes. I would also suggest that Air Fleets not be able to fly offensive missions during periods of bad weather. That would be in all of Winter and during some random turns in the fall. Armor units need a soft attack increase with their Tech Level improvements. No one would claim that a Panzer III had the same soft attack as a Panther or a Tiger.

5. Minor Country improvements: Canadians and Free French should be considered full UK units with full UK tech and HQ benefits. Free French units should have an option to convert back to full French control and French Tech Levels once France has been liberated. The Finns need their supply situation fixed. They should have their own HQ.

6. Add an additional number of low quality named HQs as a possible builds for all countries. Surely a major country should be still be able to build an HQ, if all of the originals have been lost. Possibly HQ's should be given a better defense rating also.

[Shaka of Carthage]

Dan Fenton

I presume that the UK position has been deliberately weakened there to compensate for its current unrealistic advantages in the Atlantic.

Thats a excellent point that we tend to forget. To balance the game thats exactly what has been done.

I don't believe anyone would argue with you about your other points (even though you were suppossed to limit them to three ).

[JerseyJohn]

And no music Dan! Where are your three Music Choices?

[ May 26, 2003, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: JerseyJohn ]

[Edwin P.]

Dan

I like your suggestion linking the number of hexes a sub moves to the spotting range of opponent aircraft and ships. Excellent Idea!

Essentially if a sub moves more than two hexes the opponent's naval/air spotting range is normal. If a sub moves 2 hexes or less then the sub can only be spotted by units that attempt to move into the hex occuppied by the sub.

This would allow the sub to evade enemy air power at a cost of 2/3 reduction in speed (ie instead of 3 turns, 9 turns to naviage the channel). Thus German ships can safely navigate the channel or the area around the north of England if they were prepared to stay submerged.

Re: Battleships can't attack subs

Another interesting idea. Perhaps you would want to add a SA (Sub Attack Rating). Battle Cruisers would have a Higher Sub Attack rating as compared to Battleships but Battleships would have a higher Surface Naval Attack rating as compared to Cruisers.

This would also allow the construction of cheaper dedicated ASW Air Units which would have a higher Sub Attack rating than normal Air Fleets or Bomber Fleets but a lower Naval attack strength.

Battleship - Naval Attack 4, Sub Attack 2,ND 3

Cruiser - Naval Attack 3, Sub Attack 3, ND 2

Carrier - Naval Attack 5, Sub Attack 5, ND 5

Sub - Naval Attack 5, Sub Attack 5, ND 0

Air Fleet - Naval Attack 4, Sub Attack 3 - 400MPP

ASW Fleet - Naval Attack 1, Sub Attack 3 - 200MPP

[ May 27, 2003, 02:08 AM: Message edited by: Edwin P. ]

[Konstantin V. Kotelnikov]

1) Allow historical allies to fight amongst themselves, such as Germany attacking Italy or the Red Army vs the Western Allies. Wouldn't it be interesting to see the French allied with the Germans taking on the Red Menace? Or Hitler gets his dying wish and the Western Allies join with the remains of germany and fight the Russians. Just imagine the potential for game variations with this! Italy conquering Germany boggles the mind.

2) Better revised system of naval warfare and a much larger ocean area. TSR/SPI's WWII ETO Revised edition did an awesome job of this. It covered everthing from US Lend Lease destroyers to all the Convoy Routes (North Atlantic, South Atlantic, Med and Artic). It even allowed you to ship units and such through the Mideast.

3) I echo the desire for a better economic system. Right now it is balanced. And is easily tipped to one side or the other. It's a historical game and should match that. In the table top wargames the allies MPP grew as the years went on. Remember Germany didn't mobilize for total war until after Stalingrad. And even their Total war wasn't even close to what the USA and USSR mobilized. Nazi Germany believed that a womans place was in the home raising children and thus used slave labour (some women entered the work force but not on the scale of the western allies). The USA, Britian and USSR brought women into the workforce on a wide scale.

Granted this would make it more difficult for Germany to win as the war progressed. However than can be fixed with changing victory conditions. Survival can be victory.

Hmmmm Bands....

1) Jimmy Buffett

2) Pink Floyd

3) The Eagles

Later!

[SeaWolf_48]

1) Paratroops and SS Troops

2) More ship types for Battle of the Atlantic with more ocean hexes

3) Better campaign editor

1) Rolling Stones, greatest Rock Group ever

2) AC/DC

3) Metallica

[xwormwood]

1.) History option like in COS (how the map changed, where your armies moved, which armies were lost etc.)

2.) Random special events

3.) Politic Points like in COS, maybe the option to move and / or build armys from still neutral countries

*************

1.) Saviour Machine

2.) Lordian Guard / Warlord

3.) Kemper Crabb / Arkangel

[Desert Dave]

Great responses everyone! :cool:

One of my ideas was to see where we tend to agree for the potential SC2... after all, there have been many discussions, and so I figured that most members would have a good idea of what they would MOST like to see, next.

I have "weighted" the responses (... since I had asked that they be listed in order of preference) and here are the preliminary results... I say preliminary, since some folks may not have visited in a while and may still wish to put in their couple of odd Pfennigs.

#1) Battle of the Atlantic (and/or more naval and sub operations): 24 points

#2) AI Enhancements: 9 points (... and here, we all surely appreciate how hard Hubert has worked to make this game exciting and immensely playable... we are merely hoping for some added features here and there)

#T3) Special Events: 6 points

Paratroopers: 6 points

Split Alliances

(more interplay) 6 points

A***nd so, we seem to MOST FAVOR a better and more comprehensive "Battle of the Atlantic" and this pleases me no end, since I have been campaigning for this since day one. Right on, discerning gamers! :cool:

**************

As for the Rock Bands, I was remiss in assuming that most people would surely have 3 that they listen to... perhaps I should have said: ANY 3 musical groups or individuals, BUT

I wanted to have an unofficial "House Band" (... with appropriate origins in the open-air garage of your next door neighbor, at 3 AM when you are ready & willing!! (... as disorder's Mencken-like character) to seriously consider back-brain mayhem, etc.

Anyway, the House Band is!!!

The Doors and Pink Floyd,

tied, with 5 points each!

(Morrison is not really dead, it's said, and some of his old SoCal band members still get along just enough so that... should he arrive on the Ocean going Tramp Steamer from Paris, well, Time to Rock AND Roll!)

(Pink is retired, I understand, so I don't know that he could or would round up sufficient Bad Cats in order to wail at the Moon, one more awesome time... we'll see, I have my 60s contacts and MIGHT be able to talk him into a rowsing revival!... though I doubt it.)

Why even ask? For that SC Convention!!! at the Big Sur hideaway of Bob Dylan's favorite (... eagerly escaped) pet cat... "Jive Johnson"... etc,

Stay tuned!

(We are the joy boys of Radio,

We chase electrons to & fro!!)

[Gavrok]

To echo everyone else brill game (as indicated by the forum points)

3 improvements

1) Strength of Tank/ Jet aircraft (obvious one)

2) Ability of amphibous landings to only land/ assault in the current/turn after embarking from port. This would mean that they can only land within 1 range of a friendly port...and stop (silly) invasion of Canada/ America. This would make ports very strategic jump-off points.....exception around american units would be needed.

3)resource multiplier/ force pool limits (even in scenario creator)

No parachutes please...this is a strategic game and the speed with which it is played adds to the fun.....a chess clock or timer would be appreciated

Music wise has to be

1) Julian Cope

2) Underworld

3) Cure

[Dan Fenton]

I apologize for exceeding the limit. I was concentrating so much on my response that I forgot all about the limit parameters and about the bands.

1. Fleetwood Mac.

2. Heart.

3. Rolling Stones.

[JerseyJohn]

Fine music choices and I like all six of the game ideas.

[KDG]

1) More randomness

2) Improve tanks/unimprove jets

3) Larger map

I believe everyone would like a full scale editor.