ULTIMATE STRATEGY!!!!

[aesop]

The best strategy that works out for me is to build up your airfleets and pound Britain - you can even go after the Brit navy by baiting them with corps transports. If he ignores the transport - the airfleets will kill the London defenders and your corps move in. I think even with the gold demo thia is an unstoppable strategy. (Historically, if Germany focused on the airwar in Britain and threw 3x the size of its airfleet- kiss the Brits goodbye). Germany could hold the east (Spain joins you as a bonus) and focus on killing America and then it is all the way to Moscow. This is going to be a standard strategy in the regular game when it comes out and is basically unstoppable. Don't aggravate the Ruskies too early by taking the baltics though. You can afford to take Switzerland though (3-6% change for US/USSR) I dont think the allies can afford to declare war on Italy and further delay the entry of the US or USSR in the war. It needs to hunker down and move all of its naval and air resources back home and hope for the best and pray. Sure you can take out the Italian fleet early but what's the use of it? What's more useful is to withdraw as many French forces to British territory and have them added to the Brits forces when France surrenders. And you know what? This is not even a gamey tactic but just using the principle of concentration of force. My PBEM games as the Brits and Germans with Gorski bears this out. When you have the space of a year 1940-41 to take out Britain- it's child's play when you know what you are doing. Italy even has the luxury of pounding gibraltar to link up for operation sealion. What say you tovarich? :cool:

[Camicie Nere]

I'd say that is pretty much what I do every single time that I go with the "English option." With proper management of your airfleets you can wipe out the London Corps just as your merry old Panzers are coming ashore - they roll into undefended London and that weasley Caudillo usually brings Spain into the war immediately thereafter.

Parenthetically, I have yet to see Spain come in under any circumstances other than me running roughshod through the English countryside. As a result, if I am pursuing any other sort of strategy (i.e. Russia first, Mediterranean, etc) I will roll right into Spain after stomping the Frenchies and continue all the way to Gibraltar. It is almost a necessity for purposes of protecting Italy.

Has anyone seen Spain come in for any reason other than the imminent fall of "perfidious Albion?"

[gorski]

C'mon. There's got to be more SC pbemers out there with comments. To make matters worse, Hubert has said that if you start with the invasion of Poland, the Germans probably will not have done as well as how they start out in the demo. The catch is that you may not have done as well, but you could have 1-2 more AF and less armies. The English will also not be able to disband the free French units in the Gold version.

Gorski

[pzgndr]

What settings are you playing with? Just out of curiosity (and lack of gold demo this weekend), I played a couple rounds as axis on novice settings for the first time. Wow! Yes, you get more MPPs to do things with and this leads to some spectacular successes wherever you decide to go. But be wary of any lessons-learned you pick up playing these easy games. After you're comfortable playing on the novice and green levels, beginner settings should be the default level for strategy discussions, so everyone has a benchmark to relate to.

[Hubert Cater]

To make matters worse, Hubert has said that if you start with the invasion of Poland, the Germans probably will not have done as well as how they start out in the demo.

More specifically, you have to play well to be in the same position as the Germans were in may of 1940. Not impossible but it does make things more interesting when starting with the '39 campaign as Axis.

The point of the "ultimate strategy" did remind me of one small change that I made to Air Fleets, as I think it was brought up a while ago in another thread as well, basically the Air Fleets combat effectiveness has been reduced just slightly against soft and tank targets. The soft attack and tank attack values have been decreased by 1 point for the final version as well. This I think was needed and should make things slightly more interesting for strategies that wholely depend on air power alone.

Hubert

[Von_Manteuffel]

My favorite demo strategy is to take out France as per usual, buying two air fleets as soon as I can afford it. As soon as France is out, I move everything to the eastern front, except for three corps as garrisons in France in Germany. I don’t leave any air power in the west.

I buy the Manstein HQ, and any tank groups I can afford for Germany.

At the same time, I’m moving most of my Italians towards Yugoslavia and saving up for an HQ for them.

As soon as I can (august) I attack the USSR with three HQ’s and everything I have in air and on land. One turn later, Italy goes into Yugoslavia.

At the end of the demo, I controlled Moscow, Leningrad, and most other Russian cities. The soviets had moved to the Urals and still held Sevastopol, but they had no chance. The Italians had taken Yugo and were one turn from taking Greece. All of the axis minors (except Spain) were in for my side too. Germany alone was getting over 450 mpp per turn and Russia only about 300 or less. I also had 2000 mpp held in reserve for later use. At that point I could finish Russia and easily deal with the west and the US hadn’t even come in yet.

That was the beginner (default) difficulty setting.

[Hubert Cater]

This strategy should also be a bit more of a challenge as I have tweaked the 1940 setup and improved the mobile defence strategy of the Soviet AI to take advantage of the river hexes etc.

Hubert

[Carl G. E. von Mannerheim]

Great, ive noticed that the a.i doesnt use the terrain as much as it should, defensive lines on river hexes is just one thing that the a.i needs to factor into its defensive strategies, the russians also need to use marsh hexes to their advantage as well.

[gorski]

The point of the "ultimate strategy" did remind me of one small change that I made to Air Fleets, as I think it was brought up a while ago in another thread as well, basically the Air Fleets combat effectiveness has been reduced just slightly against soft and tank targets.

That will probably be enough to save England, or at least make it impossible for Germany to win after buying too many AF in order to conquer England.

I guess we can save the rest of the pbem discussion until SC goes gold.

Gorski

[Straha]

I'm a bit worried about one thing, though. There seems to be quite a bit of tweaking with respect to making things more challenging for the Axis player. But - other things being equal - I found that, at least against the computer, playing the Allies is *already* much easier than playing the Axis. So, apart from the entrenchment of the Italians, is there anything which helps the computer controlled Axis against a Human in return? For example, to loose France to the computer, I regularily have to give the Axis additional experience points.

Btw will we have the AI vs AI feature? I really would like to balance scenarios with respect to how such "hands off" games turn out.

Straha

[Hubert Cater]

That will probably be enough to save England, or at least make it impossible for Germany to win after buying too many AF in order to conquer England.

It's a slight reduction in offensive potency so it may or may not, but as you said, it will play out more interestingly.

Hubert

[Hubert Cater]

I'm a bit worried about one thing, though. There seems to be quite a bit of tweaking with respect to making things more challenging for the Axis player. But - other things being equal - I found that, at least against the computer, playing the Allies is *already* much easier than playing the Axis. So, apart from the entrenchment of the Italians, is there anything which helps the computer controlled Axis against a Human in return? For example, to loose France to the computer, I regularily have to give the Axis additional experience points.

Many of the tweaks were to counter the gamey strategies and as you've pointed out the gamey strategies have more to deal with Axis strategies than Allies. This can be seen for natural reasons since they were the aggressors. So there is really not much that can be done to make things tougher for the Allies (without ruining play balance) other than improve the Axis AI. But not to worry, there have been some tweaks in this area as well, and some of the gamey baiting of the Axis AI has been eliminated so you should see some improved coordination between the combined arms during attacks.

No miracles mind you, but giving the AI some experience bonus does help as you've already done. Believe me it is a challenge at the higher settings and can make games very interesting in terms of long term strategic thinking, especially when playing the 1939 campaign

Btw will we have the AI vs AI feature? I really would like to balance scenarios with respect to how such "hands off" games turn out.

Sorry, not right now.

Hubert

[Camicie Nere]

In keeping with the heading of this topic, I have developed a quite solid Allied strategy (Fog ON, basic level of difficulty - the one that gives a bonus to neither side)

While the Huns are invading France, I have had excellent results in bringing the Kriegsmarine to a decisive battle - usually with the aid of the French I can hunt down the two U-boats. Scharnhorst and Gneisenau can be dropped without a lot of trouble around the north end of Denmark. You can bring the allied naval units in fairly close because the Luftwaffe is busy pounding the French army.

Bingo! Now you have command of the seas. It makes Sea Lion fairly unfeasable (at least so far as I have seen) and allows you to isolate, invade, and liberate Norway. I often go and attack Sweden for the hell of it. And as punishment in advance for spawning Ace of Base about 50 years later. (Some would argue for Abba, but young Camicie Nere found their tunes to be fairly catchy)

[gorski]

Camicie Nere, if you want to try it, email me at gorski35@msn.com

Gorski

[Aloid]

Originally posted by Camicie Nere:

<snip> ... And as punishment in advance for spawning Ace of Base about 50 years later. (Some would argue for Abba, but young Camicie Nere found their tunes to be fairly catchy) [/QB]

Gee, thanks for dredging that up... now I've got Ace of Abba going through my head...

:eek:

Personally, I still prefer having Kraftwerk supporting my panzers, while gaming... old habits die hard!

Aloid

[Straha]

Ok, then my excuse for declaring war on the USA as Axis will be that we have to punish them in advance for torturing us with Britney Spears 55 years after WW2 will have ended.

Straha

[Aloid]

Originally posted by Straha:

Ok, then my excuse for declaring war on the USA as Axis will be that we have to punish them in advance for torturing us with Britney Spears 55 years after WW2 will have ended.

Straha

I've found that if you turn off the sound, then she's not that bad! (to look at)

By the way, wouldn't a couple Air units make hash out of the Allied forces trying to reduce the Kreigsmarine? In the long run, I'd think the potential losses would hurt your efforts...

I've always just screened them and kept them bottled up.

Aloid

[aesop]

Well, like Hubert said- he is reducing the damage taken by naval fleets and punches given by airfleets. Lets see how this works out in the game. Historically though, without air supremacy- there would have been no d-day.

[Camicie Nere]

Originally posted by Aloid:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Straha:

Ok, then my excuse for declaring war on the USA as Axis will be that we have to punish them in advance for torturing us with Britney Spears 55 years after WW2 will have ended.

Straha

I've found that if you turn off the sound, then she's not that bad! (to look at)

By the way, wouldn't a couple Air units make hash out of the Allied forces trying to reduce the Kreigsmarine? In the long run, I'd think the potential losses would hurt your efforts...

I've always just screened them and kept them bottled up.

Aloid</font>

[Camicie Nere]

Oops!

1) I would think that N'Sync, O-town, et al would furnish far more of a Casus Belli against the US than would Britney Aguilera or whatever the hell her name is.

2) The AI, at least, does not trouble the Royal Navy with air units because they are being used at that time against the French. I have typically been able to sweep the German naval units completely from the seas within two turns.

Against a human player things would perhaps be more difficult, but I have been enjoying all the problems I can cause the AI in liberating Norway and descending thereafter upon Denmark.

You can clobber Copenhagen simultaneously with four capital ships as well as with air from Norway. I have tried it four times and have always wiped out the German corps in one turn.

By the time the AI has reacted and operated in its reinforcements, you can have the capital for supply and put a couple of armies across the neck of Jutland. The Germans have a very narrow front to attack and if you have a couple of armies backed by an HQ and a few airfleets AND all sorts of lurking naval vessels on both sides....

Well, it is a big threat to the German heartland and an enormous drain on their ability to take the initiative.

I think this would have potential even against a human player once the Axis got bogged down in Africa, the Balkans, or better yet the USSR. If you have Norway as the Allies and Naval dominance and the FoW on you can literally descend upon Denmark at a moment's notice.

Anyhow, I thought it would be interesting to look at some Allied strategies. They seem to get short-changed in terms of discussion space in these parts.

[aesop]

Talking for the allies- best to desert France and get all that you can manage to British territory- they turn into Free French forces. Transport corps from Palestine to Egypt. The Egyptian corps back to England. Air corps in the med to England. Algierian corps to Malta- French corps in Vichy to Gibraltar and Gibraltar corps back to England. Get all the French forces to British territory and you have gathered enough forces to hold back (hopefully) any invasion with my strategem mentioned in the first post. Just hope Germany commits sepuku by attacking Russia and the USA joining in. Britain has no resources to go about doing operations when facing a human opponent. I would venture attacking Norway after they launch Barbarossa as Germany would be too busy to divert forces to Norway and you would have sufficient concentration of force in the area. No more disbanding strategy as that value is being reduced considerably in the gold version. I would dare anyone to go about in trying anything else while I am holding Germany. Gorski also suggested to get forces entrenched south of Manchester and Manchester itself and keep London with a mere corps so as to avoid attritioning your air fleet. The mountain area south of manc. is a real good defensive area and a tough nut to crack. I frequently have to bypass it. By the way, also get your naval fleet from the med to England as you will need it. The two carriers can act as air fleets that defends. Once the US joins in, you would get more resources and manpower to play with. But like I said, if a human player holds Germany- just sit tight and pray that sealion does not materialize.

[Aloid]

Originally posted by Camicie Nere:

<snip> ...

2) The AI, at least, does not trouble the Royal Navy with air units because they are being used at that time against the French.

I have indeed used the gamey tactic of baiting the Axis air units from bombing my French front line, by parking fleets in coastal waters. The AI has a thing for this, and does go for the fleets first. Park them further away, and the AI does not bother.

Hubert has said that he has (thankfully) made a tweek to this...

I'll have to start preparing a counter for your strategy... wouldn't want to let you ashore that easy now, would I?

Aloid

[Bruce70]

I personally think that the best way to defeat sea lion is to delay it as long as possible. It takes considerable longer to take France against a human opponent than it does against the computer. In one PBEM game I invaded Denmark and managed to fight Germany to a draw (without losing France). I don't think that would work twice (or against a more experienced player) and I agree that in general it would be foolish to conduct a major operation as the allies early in the war. But IMO withdrawing forces from France is just begging your opponent to conduct sea lion. You will also be giving them a huge leg up in technology since they will be able to spend their points from France several turns earlier.

[aesop]

Of course do not abandon your initial defensive lines as you could not withdraw every single French force to Britain. Germany will crash thru within two to four turns regardless of your resistance after the fall of the lower countries. I am sure invading Denmark is always a threat to Germany and going down to Kiel. But like I mentioned earlier, if the German player knows what he is doing, this would be an exercise in futility.

[gorski]

Yep, what Aesop said. I will take it a step beyond 'exercise in futility'. Any English unit that lands in Europe without a port to escape from will die fast. This assumes Russia is not in the war yet.

Gorski