The Grandmaster Event: (Best of 5 games). GAME #1 Terif (Axis) vs Zapp, ZAPP WON

[zappsweden]

I have the punch dudes. When the going gets tough, the tough get going.

I shook up the world!!! - Muhammed Ali

[ July 03, 2005, 04:52 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[hellraiser]

SC is a mix of strategy, luck, gamble. It is not chess (i.e. only strategy and very rarely gamble)

SC resembles a lot the RL wars - we have examples where luck and boldness mattered a lot more than strategy.

No offence Terif but I had too many games where luck won the day. I agree, in the majority of the games, the luck factor is under control. I am reffering to the games where luck (or bad luck if u want) were game breakers. For me or for the opponent. And it happened not only once or twice.

[Blashy]

Not really Terif, I've played plenty of games with no tech and proper bids, it all comes out even and a more strategic game.

The carriers are still usefull in many areas along the coasts.

And USSR is equal in tech to Axis the minute barbarosa starts.

You should try some with some experienced players.

[hellraiser]

Blashy, it is a matter of MPPS - under the cookie cutter, axis get too much cash. And they have more experienced troops/HQs and the big advantage - operating units all over their empire. It is too much IMHO.

[Blashy]

What's your point? You're helping my cause.

DoW on USSR with level 3 jets and say level 2 troops while USSR starts at 0.

With no TECH at least troops are same level, with the exception of experience.

Also, with no tech Western Allies can spend on troops and prepare for an earlier invasion instead of being stuck waiting to have a suitable tech level.

Sure Axis saved MPPs by not spending on tech but I'm telling you the Allies are a harder force to deal with because they are not surpassed by tech (luck).

I've played about 20+ no tech games and they were the most intense and involved more strategy.

You guys should try them before making an opinion on it. A good 2 games between top players would give you all a good idea.

[jon_j_rambo]

"You're not that pretty" --- Howard responds to Ali

[komninosm]

I think all this luck problem would be partially solved (mostly the bad luck problem) if research chances were accumulative from round to round. This would mean less likely lucky techs (lower starting percentage) and less waits for bad luck long time no tech periods. Something along the lines of MoO2 but more refined for SC purposes. I don't understand why Hubert went for the total luck-random factor in research, each turn the same as the one before. It's unrealistic as well as unbalanced.

[zappsweden]

Originally posted by Terif:

Yep - if I would have lost it because of a good opponent... but this is my first game lost only to tech and other luck factors...

I have one theory conecerning tech. What if Terif (when playing Axis) is an Industrial freak who invest 4-5 chits IT and using catchup for Jets and AT?

I often hear about "I got x chits for y years, no jets" but very seldom hear "I had IT L4 in the end phase, only using 2 chits".

That would explain that in many games the VISIBLE tech advantage is on the enemy side while Terif has 4 levels of IT enabling him to win the long games.

The only tech I normally see Axis Terif have before Barbarossa is some Jets. No Long Range, no AT, no HT, nothing...

Terif, to proof yourself u really had bad tech, what if we swap passwords right here right now and load each others games to see the IT tech levels?

[ July 25, 2005, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Dragonheart]

Well if your opp will get high IT before Barbarossa you are toast regardless of your skill. In our PL-Tournament i got headcracked by one opponent reaching IT 4 pre Barbarossa. :eek:

My researchprogramm when using 9 chits is like follows. (most of the time i use 7-9 chits for axis)

1) 1 Chit IT

2) 1 Chit LR

3) 1 Chit Jet

4) 1 Chit LR

5) 1 Chit Jet

6) 1 Chit Jet

7) 1 Chit HT

8) 1 Chit Jet

9) 1 Chit AT

[zappsweden]

Anyones else or is it only me who would want to take a peek on Terif's tech levels in this game?

[komninosm]

Why not get 10? 1 more army isn't going to break your game or win it.

I like to get (as Axis):

1) Jet

2) IT

3) LR

4) Jet

5) HT

6) AT

7) Jet

8) Jet

9) Jet

10) LR or IT (I also like AA, but it's banned and if I feel funky I may invest in rockets or even subs or ships)

The order depends on luck though. If I get lucky with Jets I postphone them a bit since investing more into them is not very efficient. If I see enemy is better than me in any category andI am eligible for catchup then I invest there sooner or if it's an important advantage for my enemy (like Jets or Heavy Tanks) that I want to eliminate.

[hellraiser]

@zapp - you maybe right - Terif usually manage to keep the momentum in Russia no matter what. Some IT could be the answer. But, using the catchup effect (which is a good ideea imho), the chances NOT to get jets (in a fairly reasonable amount of time) when allies have +2 jet tech advantage, is indeed very low.

And, regarding IT - it is usually my answer to 'bad' early gameplay, when I need to be able to do something with my axis later in the game. It basically offsets the delaying effect an aggro strategy causes or a poor early axis gameplay causes.

So it is acceptable to think he used IT in the game vs you (the CC was badly disrupted). Regardless the IT level, the problem is his bad luck in jet tech catching up. And, on the other hand, even with lvl 4 IT you cannot battle till the cow comes home several air units having +2 or more tech advantage. Not to mention the experience they collect until axis decide to switch air west.

[zappsweden]

Another thing to note about tech is, Germany spreading out their tech into many areas will be a pain for Allies since they need to invest*3 (UK+USA+Russia) and they are less suited for IT. Germany get catchup from USA and Russia. UK have such small MPP base so it wont be profitable. USA start with L1 and without catchup it is hardly profitable too. Russia start with L2 and then gets only 3% per chit and Russia join the game so late.

However, if USA and Russia KNEW that the German player always invest heavily in IT, they could then calculate with catchup and get 6% per chit... making it profitable.

Therefore, IT is one of the most important secrets that Germany never should reveal in AAR (at leist not before 1943). If Germany say they have IT L4, USA and Russia will buy 2 chits IT right away, else they wont.

[ July 05, 2005, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Blashy]

Well tech invest for allies does not really get spread out.

Uk goes into jet tech.

USA goes into troop tech

Russia should go into troop tech as well, starting with level 0 planes against a level 3+, don't count on catching up.

So it's not like all 3 countries have to invest in every area like Germany.

Still, a no tech game is much more competitive from my experiences.

[komninosm]

When you say no tech, do you go in the editor and make all the starting tech levels for the countries that have them 0 too?

[zappsweden]

Originally posted by Blashy:

Well tech invest for allies does not really get spread out.

Uk goes into jet tech.

USA goes into troop tech

Russia should go into troop tech as well, starting with level 0 planes against a level 3+, don't count on catching up.

So it's not like all 3 countries have to invest in every area like Germany.

Still, a no tech game is much more competitive from my experiences.

If Germany gets IT L4, it sure will be spread out.

[hellraiser]

I like the name of the thread: '....Zapp WON'

How about editing the other 3 threads, Zapp?

[zappsweden]

Originally posted by Terif:

September 19, 1943:

Now also Russia developed Jets 3...unbelievable...Germany with its 5 chits still at lv 2...

Against such a technical superiority Germany has no chance any more and surrenders.

Most of its ground forces still in good shape, but now outnumbered, outproduced and without any chance in any airfight both in east and west there is no hope any more.

Time for the next war where techs and luck will hopefully be distributed a bit more even...

You were gone already before that. Paris fell October 1940, Norway in May 1941 and I had 14 air and 3 carriers (despite losing one carier due to bad luck in the Baltic in the early game) versus your 8 air fleets.

The main reason why you were doing ok (and gaining ground in russia) was that the Russian L0 jets hid and needed upgrades before being able to stop German air superiority.

[ July 13, 2005, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[Tagwyn]

JJR: You are not that good? Much less pretty. Tag

[zappsweden]

Originally posted by Terif:

(fall of France (October 13, 1940) vs first jet tech (November 1, 1942))

- Germany started with 3 chits that´s right, but increased it after some turns without success to 5 chits.

I think you are lying or giving a false impression (I could say "remembered it wrong" just to be nice) regarding your years of 3-5 chits jets and nothing.

Here is what I am quite sure u use as German tech strategy against top players:

1) 3 Chits IT the first 5 turns after fall of Paris

2) Buying another 2-3 chits (non-IT) after cookie-cutter is going well and put most of them on Jets

3) When Barbie starts and plunder for Greece+Iraq, increase to 10 chits

Germany will gain roughly 1900 MPP having 3 chits IT from August 1940-August 1943. Also, just having 5-6 German chits give alot of MPP for turn one Barbarossa compared to buying 10 chits.

If then game continues beyond August 1943, Germany is gaining roughy 650*0.2 (since with average luck Germany now has L4 IT)=130 MPP per turn.

[ July 25, 2005, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[hellraiser]

'Here is what I am quite sure u use as German tech strategy against top players: '

Maybe true but here it was not the case

[zappsweden]

Originally posted by hellraiser:

'Here is what I am quite sure u use as German tech strategy against top players: '

Maybe true but here it was not the case

Really?

Who knows how many IT chits and IT leves Terif had in this game? I do not believe his bad tech stories anymore.

[Blashy]

Who the hell cares what type of strategy he uses?

Should he change it because it makes him win virtually all the time?

Its not cheating so he's obviously doing something better that we are not. Which for the most part is studying all the nuances of the game. Which some of you hardcore veterans still get beat with at times. So it goes to show his knowledge of the game vs. everyone else.

[zappsweden]

Flashy Blashy, the point is NOT that he normally wins (because I won this game) or that he is a great player. The point is that he BITCHED just about everything from bad luck, slow play and "hoping I do not cheat", so in case he lost ppl would just remember this as a "tech luck game".

I could see it coming from a long distance. Zappstradamus predicted Zapp victory, but also predicted heavy rain on the victory parade. Coincidences??? Nah. Sometimes I just hate it when I am right

THAT'S a point :cool:

[ July 25, 2005, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: zappsweden ]

[jon_j_rambo]

Yodl, response?