jgdpzr Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 Jeff, I think the issue here is that Teutonicc was talking about squads firing on the HTs, and I think you may think he is talking about the squads inside the HTs. That's how I read it anyway. [This message has been edited by jgdpzr (edited 02-13-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: However, a halftrack should be easier to kill regardless of height simply because it is really only partially armored. I do not think the windshield can resist rifle rounds from any elevation. At least the American halftracks (don't know yet about the Germans) had armored visors that could be dropped down over the windshield when the shooting started. And as for hand grenades, their explosive charge is relatively puny compared to artillery of any caliber. So to get a kill, they've either got to get inside through an open hatch or otherwise hit exactly a weak spot. As far as getting inside the vehicle, being tossed from a higher elevation would help a lot, even for a halftrack. That said, it does sound from the general drift of the tests that people are reporting, that there may be some extra invulnerability for halftracks that has slipped into the program. But it is also possible that the "fuzzy logic" that Charles based the program on is skewed a bit towards reproducing some events more often than their appearance in real life would justify. I have been a staunch defender of the "**** happens" theory, and I think it still applies. But it might be worth a thorough review just to check whether it is functioning as intended. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 just a bump to stay fresh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 Originally posted by joeski: ... when you write a program and test the living daylights out of it "No matter what" as soon as you release it to the users (me) your gonna have problems. Never fails.Isn't it common knowledge that by definition bug-free software is obsolete. (Note that in spite of this software with bugs not necessarily is up to date...) Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 Originally posted by Olle Petersson: Isn't it common knowledge that by definition bug-free software is obsolete. (Note that in spite of this software with bugs not necessarily is up to date...) Well, the theorem goes as follows: Every piece of software is buggy and can be optimized. This leads to the conclusion: The best program possible is zero bytes long and still faulty. Dschugaschwili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hilltopper Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 I've noted the same effect against Greyhounds. I created a same game and took away the panzerfaust. The troops just lobbed grenade after grenade at the greyhounds without any effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claymore Posted February 14, 2001 Share Posted February 14, 2001 After checking all of the dimpled ballots and a complete inventory of chads found on the floor of my workspace, the results are clear: Former VP Al Gore would like the close assault of armoured vehicles patched by BTS. Amazingly enough this too is my opinion. Cheers Murray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sitzkrieg Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 BTS please fix or do somefink! Sorry, couldn't resist. Just bumping this one to the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kking199 Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 I've become a lurker as I spend most of my time playing CM and hanging out at DoW, members.tripod.com/johnnocm, a great CM players club. This thread is what is fantastic about CM and demonstrates how a forum can work. I too had noticed in a 1.12 game US HT's being much more effective and Inf being unable to knock them out. I scratched it up to conditions, rain/dark and bad luck. This thread started with a legitimate issue voiced in a coherant/mature way WITH additional testing to verify theory. Nice work Jeff. Since then others have backed up this theory with personal games and more testing. Excellent. BTS reads this and says... hmm, looks legit will look into it. I expect within a day or two we will get an answer to this issue(reluctant to use the word bug). Long live the Internet!! In contrast, and frankly I don't know how BTS puts up with it, we have the whiners who come on and complain about CM when in fact the problems is that they are simply bad players with lousy strategies and/or tactics! I don't fear Uber weapons because I have never seen an Uber weapon in CM! Bigger they the harder they fall!! Great work guys, making a "Classic" game even better! Kong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal DI FOLCO Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Bump it, can't understand why there's been *NO* BTS answer/clarifications... I ran a test myself also - 5 US HT vs a german Rifle 44 Co without AT wpns. The HTs just rushes OVER the German infantry... and well, in 3 games out of 6, germans are slaughtered ! It seems however that the infantry CAN KO much more easily a HT, IF doesn't move...In CM the TacAI keeps moving the HT to prevent that ! It makes some sense however... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philistine Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Originally posted by Pascal DI FOLCO: Bump it, can't understand why there's been *NO* BTS answer/clarifications... {snip} Uh...on page 2: Hello folks, We are looking into this issue now. I'll post our findings when we actually have some Steve It's been less than 72 hours since that post. Don't you think we can cut them a little slack as they first have to verify the problem identify the parameters (all cases where it happens) find the coding issue(s) and figure out a response. I'd say a little patience is in order. --Philistine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal DI FOLCO Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Originally posted by Philistine: Uh...on page 2: I'd say a little patience is in order. --Philistine Oops, sorry ! I peruse this thread since its start and missed the BTS post ... Damn BBS software and Refresh button ! All my apologies men... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kelly Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Half tracks have become omnipotent. I am involved in a pbem game now, and my .50 cal position is peppering a German HT. I was quite surprised that it lived through the two turns...75m from my gun with clear LOS. Hmm, perhaps it's this bug you speak of, or perhaps my gunner is worthless. Cheers, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Originally posted by John Kelly: Half tracks have become omnipotent. I am involved in a pbem game now, and my .50 cal position is peppering a German HT. I was quite surprised that it lived through the two turns...75m from my gun with clear LOS. Hmm, perhaps it's this bug you speak of, or perhaps my gunner is worthless. Cheers, John Hi John It is my understanding that this issue is more closely related to the effectiveness of hand grenades and the close infantry assualt of the HT than its omnipotence to .50 cal MG's I say this because in my experience in a scenario I tested in v1.12 playing the the 251 HTs against the U.S. .50 cal bearing HTs the U.S. HT's KO'd all the german HT's with in 2-3 turns, with only one or two U.S HT losses from MG fire from the German HTs. So John I would predict that German HT that is under .50 cal fire "should" give it up within the next turn or two at the most. I'm not sure that the German HT's are any more impervious to .50 cal fire than they every were, but there seems to be some good evidence that U.S. HT's are now much more difficult to take out in a close assualt when your units don't have any fausts or 'shrecks handy, in other words rifles and grenades arn't getting the job done the way they used to. IMHO -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Not just U.S. HTs, Tom, the German HTs are also very difficult to take out with an infantry close assault. ------------------ expert \'ek-,spert'\ n : someone who knows more and more about less and less until eventually they know everything about nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Wennerberg Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 You think it's bad with halftracks. I put some barb wire & road block in a clearing surrounded by woods. I had several infantry units area fire at the wire for several turns. The wire ... is still there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Originally posted by Stefan Wennerberg: I put some barb wire & road block in a clearing surrounded by woods. I had several infantry units area fire at the wire for several turns. The wire ... is still there. It's ok... You can't remove a roadblock or a barbed wire in the game. But you can clear minefields. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Wennerberg Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Originally posted by Xavier: It's ok... You can't remove a roadblock or a barbed wire in the game. But you can clear minefields. I've been shelling the uberwire with 14 inch navel guns. The wire is ... still there! I think we need to bring Rexford in on this to double check the math. Also, the game s "generic barb wire," I hope this is resolved in CM2!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedbump Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 Was it Crack or Elite wire? Speedbump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted February 15, 2001 Author Share Posted February 15, 2001 Originally posted by Speedbump: Was it Crack or Elite wire? Speedbump I think it was Elite wire on crack. That stuff is very hard to demoralize... Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 bump same as the titanium HT thread but this one was first -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 (quasi-bump) LOL about that "titanium halftrack" moniker. Those aluminum-based M113's and M2 Bradleys have to be a retrograde step then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbramsGunner Posted February 15, 2001 Share Posted February 15, 2001 I wrote this email to BTS today: 'I've been reading the Combat Mission forum, and there seems to be a bug in v1.12 regarding infantry assaults being ineffective against half-tracks. Is this the case and if so will a patch be released to address this?' and this is the reply I got from Matt: "We have been (so far) unable to replicate this bug. In tests I have done, Isaw infantry deal with halftracks quickly and efficiently. Testing continues though and if something truly is broke then we will deal with it like we have always done in the past" Hope this puts everyone's worries to rest about what they are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted February 16, 2001 Author Share Posted February 16, 2001 Wow, that comes as a big surprise. I wonder what his test parameters were, and why he got results so differnt from everyone elses? Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted February 16, 2001 Author Share Posted February 16, 2001 Perhaps MadMatt could comment here about his test and his results? I am having trouble reconciling his quick and efficient infantry with my infantry who can only kill tracks by weighting them down with grenade fragments! Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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