CMBB - an enhancement for scenario/operation design

[Capitalistdoginchina]

I was designing a few scenarios recently and had an idea........the light bulb came on

I wish i could arrange for a new set of orders/briefing to arrive at certain points in the game just like reinforcements.

For example - i would like to arrange new orders to appear for the allies on turn 12 along with the 3 crack Hellcats and a company of vet engineers. We could write the orders, or breifing, and set the arrival of the orders just like we set the arrival of new men or equipment.

It could be to order a counterattack on a certain location or to withdraw, or to hold fast because reinforcements are on the way.

This could dramatically change the way scenarios are designed, and could turn a defensive beginning into an attacking ending especially if sufficient reserves were planned to show up.

I am designing a scenario now where the germans are attacking an allied town, but before they can take the town they must secure and hold an allied outpost first and clear mines for the arrival of the assault AFV's. But the allies will receieve reinforcements later in the game which will allow them to counter attack and hopefully retake the outpost.

But it is hard to explain this in the initial breifing unless i give away the fact that reinforcements will arrive for the allies, thus creating a spoiler alert, or spoiling the surprise ofor the allied player that he will get the reinforcements.

I would love this feature to be in CMBB. Imagine being hammered by the AI or your PBEM opponent, then you get a set of orders that tells you to hang on because reserves are on the way and due to arrive imminently. Or to receieve 5 Tigers along with orders to counterattack along the enemy flank......the possibilities are endless.

This would be on my wishlist.....other opinions welcome.

CDIC

[Nabla]

Yes, an excellent idea. Very useful for unbalanced scenarios. A big YES vote from me.

But once again the implications of this w.r.t. the strategic AI may be complicated. Who knows...

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: Nabla ]</p>

[SlowMotion]

I also vote YES. This would be cool - how about some kind of messengers that would bring you the message IF they get to some area (meet troops or something)? Like a jeep arrives to one side of the map, but before the jeep driver can bring the new instructions (to you the player), he has to meet some of the 'old troops'. You're told that this unit has a message, but before you get to read it, you have to get the messenger guy to certain place alive. So if he gets killed, no info available.

[aka_tom_w]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SlowMotion:

I also vote YES. This would be cool - how about some kind of messengers that would bring you the message IF they get to some area (meet troops or something)? Like a jeep arrives to one side of the map, but before the jeep driver can bring the new instructions (to you the player), he has to meet some of the 'old troops'. You're told that this unit has a message, but before you get to read it, you have to get the messenger guy to certain place alive. So if he gets killed, no info available.<hr></blockquote>

COOL!! :cool:

I really like that IDEA!

Perhaps it could be somthing simple (simple me thinks?) like when the unit with the message gets to the same 20 m tile that the highest ranking friendly officer in the game occupies, then the player gets the note.... or info update.

very inventive

So BTS How about it!!! for CMBB?????

-tom w

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: aka_tom_w ]</p>

[Pzman]

Very good idea...but it may be hard to code.

[lucero1148]

Not a bad idea, but is it that important to have. Reinforcements arrive and player's use them according to the situation at hand , shoring up a line or immediately attacking. Often I've had reinforcements show up in surprising places and due to the ebb and flow of battle they may show up just as an enemy force has passed and the reinforcements have clear LOS on the enemy's rear. Point is player's will do what they have to do when forces show up and having a note that more reinforcements are coming takes some of the surprise away.

Playing your Chinese Cracker's as PBEM and it's a hell of a blast. This is a good battle and you shopuld send it to the Scenario Depot, I'll send you a AAR if you want? Have you tried any of the ones I ent you?

All best

Patrick

[Bobbaro]

A very excellent idea.

Also one of the constraints on design is that victory is so much in the hands of the game engines limited victory conditions.

Along with such an injection into play as set out here lies also the possibility of a variety of ways for victory conditions to be enlarged upon.

One way that already exists is to override the numerical results with conditions set out in the pregame briefing. If breifing were updatable that would be even more of an opportunity. This would not affect the engine evaluation at all, but like buying rules are player designed and selected, it would be a designer feature.

Another way would be a take off on the idea of this topic, to have VLs designer updatable at predetermined points.

An additional possibility is to set up IF THIS type conditions that would trigger further conditions.

Upgrading replayability would be enhancee by sticking in VLs which are variable in effect.

VLs whose values are can be designated would also place a lot more designing power into the editor. Locations that would be defended by the AI tenaciously, but not affect score would give design a stronger AI play. VLs with a value that would adjust to zero at games end might serve if VL values are used by the AI to make decisions.

Such design options might make using the editor more difficult, but if placed under buttons designated "advanced play" they would be optional to designers.

Its Christmas season, so what do you expect; turkeys to be empty and their fillings all savory?

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Hi Patrick,

If you like the "Crackers" Scenario you will love my next one. I will send it to you when its finished - i would love to see an AAR.

I have not tried yours just yet, i am still busy designing my next one I did like the Maps you attached (jpeg file). It added atmosphere.

The message / orders / briefing could be a simple text to let you know an airstrike is planned to arrive within a few minutes, since currently you will have no idea if an aircraft was ordered for turn 11, sometimes they don't show up so you would never know that it was planned by the scenario designer.

I like the variation on this theme added by "Slowmotion" . Jeeps and Kublewagons could be a unit we all look forward to see on the map in future!! Currently if a Kublewagon arrives on turn 15 we all cry in despair and long for the arrival of a Tiger.

I dont think it will be hard to code since the CM engine can handle text on screen (Like terrain/location markers) and penetration data.

This feature would not work on quick battles, but it would work great in scenarios and Operations.

The player would still use his new units as he sees fit, and he could interpret those orders as he wishes, however, the arrival of new orders or information would add to the realism because this happened all the time. Even if you could not reach your secondary objective at least you would know what the scenario designer had hoped for, and you would also have some direction to follow other than your instinct or original briefing.

More suggestions welcome.

CDIC

[ 12-03-2001: Message edited by: Captitalistdoginchina ]</p>

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Bobbaro also has a good suggestion, variable Victory Flags.

To expand on that idea, the arrival of new orders could also coincide with the appearance of an "Optional" new Victory Flag if the new orders were instructing you to attack or defend a certain piece of the map.

If the orders were to counterattck an enemy force then no flag would be needed.

hhhmmm, a few more possibilities to think about.

CDIC

[Michael Dorosh]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Captitalistdoginchina:

I was designing a few scenarios recently and had an idea........the light bulb came on

I wish i could arrange for a new set of orders/briefing to arrive at certain points in the game just like reinforcements.

For example - i would like to arrange new orders to appear for the allies on turn 12 along with the 3 crack Hellcats and a company of vet engineers. We could write the orders, or breifing, and set the arrival of the orders just like we set the arrival of new men or equipment.

It could be to order a counterattack on a certain location or to withdraw, or to hold fast because reinforcements are on the way.

This could dramatically change the way scenarios are designed, and could turn a defensive beginning into an attacking ending especially if sufficient reserves were planned to show up.

I am designing a scenario now where the germans are attacking an allied town, but before they can take the town they must secure and hold an allied outpost first and clear mines for the arrival of the assault AFV's. But the allies will receieve reinforcements later in the game which will allow them to counter attack and hopefully retake the outpost.

But it is hard to explain this in the initial breifing unless i give away the fact that reinforcements will arrive for the allies, thus creating a spoiler alert, or spoiling the surprise ofor the allied player that he will get the reinforcements.

I would love this feature to be in CMBB. Imagine being hammered by the AI or your PBEM opponent, then you get a set of orders that tells you to hang on because reserves are on the way and due to arrive imminently. Or to receieve 5 Tigers along with orders to counterattack along the enemy flank......the possibilities are endless.

This would be on my wishlist.....other opinions welcome.

CDIC<hr></blockquote>

But Briefings have no effect on gameplay whatsoever. You would need to be able to change the victory conditions accordingly in the game to match. You could write a completely bogus briefing, or no briefing at all - the player figures out what he needs for victory by checking the location and point value of the flags, and the number of his own units that are marked as "exit for points".

It would be neat to have variable VC - not just briefings - especially if they were based on conditions in the game. It would also be interesting to see it possible for both sides to win. Say Attacker "A" gets supremely mauled assaulted Defender "B". His VC then change to getting what is left of his force off the map, past his start line. If he does this without further major loss, then he could get a minor victory, say, while the defender - who failed to pursue him back to his start line - would also get a minor victory for having repulsed his attack.

[Capitalistdoginchina]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

But Briefings have no effect on gameplay whatsoever. You would need to be able to change the victory conditions accordingly in the game to match. You could write a completely bogus briefing, or no briefing at all - the player figures out what he needs for victory by checking the location and point value of the flags, and the number of his own units that are marked as "exit for points".

.<hr></blockquote>

This is true Michael, but the same applies to the original briefings at the start of the scenario....so why do we have briefings or orders? They are there to add a certain flavour to the game, to give some direction to the player, and to set the scene of the battle to create atmosphere. I am suggesting that this can also happen mid battle as well as prior to the battle.

Adding mid battle orders would be optional, just as bringing in reinforcements is optional to the designer.

It would be neat to have variable VC - not just briefings - especially if they were based on conditions in the game. It would also be interesting to see it possible for both sides to win. Say Attacker "A" gets supremely mauled assaulted Defender "B". His VC then change to getting what is left of his force off the map, past his start line. If he does this without further major loss, then he could get a minor victory, say, while the defender - who failed to pursue him back to his start line - would also get a minor victory for having repulsed his attack.

I agree, variable victory settings would be great to have either via additional victory flags or by changing the value of the flags (Increase value to highlight the importance of that location)

To go back to the beginning, what I am suggesting is the (Optional) inclusion of a text file containing revised orders, or new orders, or just a situation report / briefing to add to the realism of a scenario. If accompanied by reinforcements placed in the right location it could dramatically change the course of the battle.

CDIC

[lucero1148]

Yo Terry,

Well I was skeptical about the idea first, but you sold me on this jeep / kubelwagon courier service. That would be very funny to see. I can imagine player's being conditioned to cower in fear or jump for joy whenever they see a jeep arrive in the middle of a battle.(ala Pavlov's dog) "Oh no, more Jumbo's on the way. Time to bug out!"

Variable VL's would also be a nice thing to have if that could also be totally random and if possible player chosen (2-3 alternate sets of VL's)

When you finish your next scenario please send me a copy. Chinese Cracker's is a very lively battle. I'm working on a couple myself with Marco my scenario design partner. One is an operation and another a city battle attacking into Milan. If there was a Stalingrad in the Italian campaign this battle would make a good simulation.

Cheer's

Patrick

[SlowMotion]

Captitalistdoginchina:

I think your idea about new flags appearing to the map at the same time with new orders would make this perfect. In a scenario lasting 30 turns first you would have to move troops to some point and then after say 10 turns the new info would tell you whether you are supposed to attack the hill on the left or the bridge on the right.

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Shameless bump......

CDIC

[Lt Bull]

Great line of discussion! I have voiced my ideas on the fundamental abstraction for what VLs and their function are meant to be representing or modeling "in real life" and how limiting it can be when they are the main source of deciding "victory" in scenarios (others being points for kills and exiting units). Also the implications on "gamey" VL behaviour.

Anything that can further enhance and spice up the modelling of how a scenario can unfold and how victory is achieved will score big time with me!!

A battle is like a puzzle. The more twists, turns surprises and variation, the more it will keep you on your toes and challenge you.

Lt Bull

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Lt Bull i agree, if we can add anything to enhance the game or increase playability it would be a benefit to all.

CDIC

[GriffinCheng+]

CDIC,

If you get yours hands on John Tiller wargames like East Front 2, West Front, Panzer Campaign series, etc, they have a dialog giving the estimated arrival "time" and contents of the reinforcement(s). Not as dynamic as your idea, which is brillant anyway, but it is something I have been asking for since Day One.

Keep up the good works.

Griffin.

P.S. Any time for a friendly game? Ducking back into cover now...

[Cauldron]

Anything that boosts campign style battles is a good move...

I don't think "meetings" are necessary, rather do it on a time schedule if both flag A and B are not taken by turn xx, then <order 2>.

etc etc

I believe even the Americans had things called phones

[SlowMotion]

Sure, but were the phone lines always working say during a heavy artillery barrage? Of course getting these new orders feature added would be the big thing here. That meeting suggestion was just the icing on the cake. Like adding a semi random factor to whether the player gets to read the message or not.

[kipanderson]

Terry, hi,

How are things doing down there in China?

And, yes, it is a very cunning and fine idea, I would vote for it. Anything that adds to the realism, and the possible variety of scenarios people could construct, has to be a winner.

May be a bit late to get anything more into CMBB, I guess, but do not claim to “know”, they must have had a cut-of-date for features that went by weeks back. Hope it makes it to the next engine, sure it will because it sounds so good.

Have put a few pints down in the George since last you were here; hope to see you again sometime.

All the best,

Kip.

[aka_tom_w]

these are all still GREAT ideas.

Any other comments?

-tom w

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Hi Guys,

Good to see a few old friends here on the thread - i do miss the warm British beer and the dazzling sunshine in London We must do it again next year.

Back on topic, i could imagine that receiving mid-battle orders would be especially useful in unbalanced scenarios (As mentioned earlier by Nabla) - having completed nearly all my games in the Wild Bill tourney i can see the need - especially when the designer plans it that the attacker overwhelms an inferior and weak defender in the first 1/3rd of the battle - then, once resupplied the defender makes a strong counterattack. The addition of new orders for the defender at this stage in the battle would make a great impact. The original orders/briefings stated that the defender must hold certain key ground and hope that reinforcements arrive.....with mid-battle orders his reinforcements could arrive with fresh orders to re-take a piece of lost ground, or to cut off a certain amount of the attackers army. Endless possibilities in fact.

CDIC

[Sergei]

It would also put ***SPOILERS*** into a new level. And take away re-playability of scenarios (after playing it with Allies you know as the German that on turn 14 a new set of orders will arrive so you will head straight on to accomplish those).

[Capitalistdoginchina]

Hi Sergie, thanks for your comments....

In CM once you have played any scenario once you would know the full details (Spoilers) the next time you play it. You would also play the same scenario a little differently second time around due to the experience you had of the first time. So i cannot see how it would effect the outcome or your starting strategy any differently than if there were no mid-battle orders (i.e. As it currently is right now)

Usually if you started with a weak force you would not have the capability to capture ground without the reinforcements anyway. The new orders would normally arrive together with new units.

CDIC

[SlowMotion]

Replayability would be greatly increased if it was possible to define alternative ways of proceeding. Let's say that scenario designer would define that reinforcement1 is either Panther + some infantry at turn 14 behind the church

OR 2 pz4s arriving sometime after turn 16 to a different place. Then you would never know exactly how things will go even after playing the scenario more than once. And if BTS allowed "executable only" scenarios (editing them would require a password), then people couldn't just open the scenario in the editor to see what kind of tricks there are.