The "levelling houses" tactic

[Sven]

A friend of mine regularily levels houses, with tanks and such, he knows (or believes) are occupied by infantry. This has proven to be a quite effective tactic, but I think it ruins gameplay a bit, making it quite hard to ambush in a town, for example.

What do you think of such a tactic?

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sven:

What do you think of such a tactic?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perfectly legitimate. Consider placing your troops behind th buildings (dug in). After he levels the buiding, crawl into the ruins and set your ambush

[Leta]

Why not? It's also a real tactic. When the Germans do their final assault over the Frost's positions in Arnhem they use this tactic (see Cornelius Ryan's book "A Bridge Too Far")

[Kurtz]

It was pretty much standard tactics, at least in the later stages of the war when the allies was inside Germany. I don't know

how common it was in France. If there were any resistance they (especially the US from what I've read) called in arty and shot the town up with their tanks.

Set the outer buildings on fire yourself, that way he can't destroy them with direct fire.

[Xavier]

Not a bad tactic...if you have enough shells

[Warmaker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kurtz:

Set the outer buildings on fire yourself, that way he can't destroy them with direct fire. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What?!? Never heard of this little trick. Hmm...

Levelling the bejezus out of a town/village is perfectly legitimate. He better had a damn good hunch or that's lots of wasted rounds. If the incoming fire is starting to get too close back your men up. Once the buildings are levelled and he's started to move on to other targets, move your men to hide among the rubble.

[CMplayer]

As I never tire of nagging about, due

to poor modelling of how blast damages

buildings, the Wirbelwind can take down

more buildings faster than pretty

much any other vehicle in CM. This

is pretty absurd. DO SUMFINK!

--Rett

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: CMplayer ]

[alla_keefek]

Alla is too ashamed to admitt to this so I will tell you. He uses this all the time. At present one of the people he is playing is having the buildings blow out from under his troops with Alla's with 7.7 inch arty. Dont tell Alla I told you this.

Cheers Abu, Alla's sidekick. Well kicks his butt hard..

[Soddball]

If they're using direct fire, why not using an 81mm or 3" spotter to smoke the town where your infantry are? It'll slow him down for a couple of (sometimes vital) turns.

[IPA]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Leta:

Why not? It's also a real tactic. When the Germans do their final assault over the Frost's positions in Arnhem they use this tactic (see Cornelius Ryan's book "A Bridge Too Far")<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it was a realistic tactic, but Frost's men stayed inside the buildings until the last possible moment which was not the norm. In addition to holding the bridgehead, the purpose of their legendary defence was to deny the Germans the approaches to the bridge, which would not have been possible from positions in the rear gardens (CM's patch for automatic building evacuation after a certain amount of damage, IMO is also realistic). Once they were forced out the battle was effectively over.

Peter

[Leta]

Of course. Frost's men aren't stupids.

[IPA]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Leta:

Of course. Frost's men aren't stupids.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mate, my point was that when the heavies started coming in, getting the hell out wasn't always an option.

Peter

[Snake Eyes]

The Germans defended a town from the middle rather than the edges due to this very tactic of area fire on buildings. The Allies were a bunch of gamey fellows, now weren't they?

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snake Eyes:

The Germans defended a town from the middle rather than the edges due to this very tactic of area fire on buildings. The Allies were a bunch of gamey fellows, now weren't they? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Defending from the middle is also problematic

in CM because you allow the attacker a too

easy approach to the cover of the outer

edge of buildings.

--Rett

[dragonwagon]

All good points I may say, but what about the guys that were on the second floor of that building you just turned into rubble,they just get up and run for cover.

Shouldn't they have been destroyed with the rest of the building?

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer:

Defending from the middle is also problematic in CM because you allow the attacker a too easy approach to the cover of the outer edge of buildings.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CM doesn't simulate the difficulty of taking a well-defended city/town/village very well. Buildings in CM are basically one-room structures on each level and no basements. I understand that much of in-building fighting is abstract, but we need more detail to allow a proper defense. The idea of a good city defense is to draw your opponent into an ambush, causing unacceptable casualties, which result in the enemy retiring from the fight. CM hasn't reached that level of detail, yet.

[YECoyote]

I'm in a game where my opponent is levelling the buildings. I say all the power to him. The more HE shells he uses against buildings, the fewer he has to use on my Infantry.

[Enoch]

Germans would often leave the outermost set of structures in a town unoccupied in order to protect themselves from direct fire. Now, I've tried this tactic myself with very mixed results. As someone already pointed out, by putting your own troops towards the middle of a town you allow the attacker the benefit of making it into cover. You can place FO's in places to hit advancing infantry and some MG's to do the same. A problem arises though that once your enemy mak,es it to the cover of other buildings then you will have a difficult time dealing with these troops.

I think the key is to keep your troops hidden for as long as possible and wait for the enemy to re-emerge from the buildings he is in and then hit him. Like I said I've had mixed results with these tactics and am still trying to figure out the best way to defend in a city. Perhaps limitations in the game engine simply don't help in this or I just might not be a very good arm-chair general.

[Scooter]

Isn't there a an Achille's heel with this tactic??

It seems to me that while a tank is putting all of his concentration on shooting at the building, he is not watching out so well for enemy tanks making him vulnerable. AND that would be one less gun for a little while at least against your tanks even if there was an overwatch.

Does that seem crazy to anyone?

[coralsaw]

Enoch,

Fire works well when you have the means to light the buildings up. Giving up the first row of buildings to protect yourself from DF does not work well though, since the enemy is offered good cover and time to bring their heavy equipment forward to establish a firebase.

What one needs to benefit from in towns is the cover that buildings offer. An enemy entering a building, will not spot an ambush until it's too late.

The best general tactic for defending in a city I have found, is setting successive kill zones, starting from the edge of the town. Infantry ambushes from hidden positions, moving inwards to the next kill zone after 30-60 sec, under suppressive longer range MG fire, if possible. Ideally, the next kill zone should be already in place, when your troops withdraw to reinforce the third zone.

FOs and ATGs are dispersed at the edge of the town, or in woods nearby to pound the enemy before he enters the town.

If your outermost kill zones get pounded by DF, then "withdraw" immediately. Casualties will have to be taken, and as somebody rightly said, every HE round that is spent on buildings is not spent on directly firing at your soldiers.

This attrition tactic works wonders, as it will demoralise, slow down and cause casualties to the enemy. You do not have to destroy the enemy to win, sometimes it's enough to throw him off balance or delay him.

Scooter,

This doesn't work well, IMO, as you can get a maximum of 1-2 free shots before you are spotted, and that's assuming par in AFV numbers, which is not always the case. The best results are, both psychologically and physically, if you show your armour late in the battle, all things being equal.

All these are general tactics, so a pinch of salt and a lot of situation awareness is your best guide.

/coralsaw

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: coralsaw ]

[Snake Eyes]

One tactic you can use to defeat the leveling of buildings ploy is to place your infantry in nearby woods or other cover, let the attacker level the building(s) and then move into the rubble when the time is right.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scooter:

...It seems to me that while a tank is putting all of his concentration on shooting at the building, he is not watching out so well for enemy tanks making him vulnerable. AND that would be one less gun for a little while at least against your tanks even if there was an overwatch.

Does that seem crazy to anyone?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't seem crazy to me, but that's assuming the defender has tanks to respond with. Quite often the defender will have none or few AFV's. It may not be the best tactic to take the fight to the attacker under these circumstances.

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Enoch:

Germans would often leave the outermost set of structures in a town unoccupied in order to protect themselves from direct fire. Now, I've tried this tactic myself with very mixed results. As someone already pointed out, by putting your own troops towards the middle of a town you allow the attacker the benefit of making it into cover. You can place FO's in places to hit advancing infantry and some MG's to do the same. A problem arises though that once your enemy mak,es it to the cover of other buildings then you will have a difficult time dealing with these troops.

I think the key is to keep your troops hidden for as long as possible and wait for the enemy to re-emerge from the buildings he is in and then hit him. Like I said I've had mixed results with these tactics and am still trying to figure out the best way to defend in a city. Perhaps limitations in the game engine simply don't help in this or I just might not be a very good arm-chair general.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been mulling over these ideas, and

it seems to me that one way to make

urban fighting a bit better is to make

the streets wider than just one tile.

Target acquisition is a bit slow, and

one frustrating thing is that units don't

seem to understand that if they are only

going to fire one burst, they should

do it WHILE THE ENEMY IS IN THE OPEN!

They often wait until charging enemy

units have reached the cover of trees

or a building to fire. And this is

when there has been a red targetting

line on the enemy the whole turn.

So making wider streets would make

the assaults a bit scarier. Then you

also have to stagger the buildings

to create an 'inner city' area out

of sight of direct fire HE from outta

town.

Now, what you do is prepare a hidden

ambush at the edge of town, and also

put MG's in buildings deep in the town

but with keyholed LOS to the enemy's

possible approach routes. This way

you can harrass him, and spring a whopping

nice ambush as his infantry tries to

occupy the first line of buildings. Then,

just as his tanks start firing you withdraw

out of there to you next position.

Be aware, that when you shoot and scoot

like this, the next defensive position

should already be in place, i.e. the

guys running should be able to run _through_

the next line and already be covered by

friends (ideally). Finally, you hope to

stall his infantry a bit in, forcing him

to move his armor into the streets,

where you can pop him with a piat or

the eqivalent.

It takes some nice custom designed maps

to be able to make a really fun urban

defence with infantry against attacking

tank-supported troops. Putting trees

and parks etc. into the town, can make

a big difference.

I'd love to hear more ideas along these

lines.

--Rett

[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: CMplayer ]

[JasonC]

"A problem arises though that once your enemy makes it to the cover of other buildings"

Try this. Defend inside the town with "back, down" deployments, to avoid HE leveling (a few delaying MGs excepted, perhaps). If possible, with SMGs to help win the firefight when he does get to the outer buildings. That is standard.

Then, the real trick is, have a couple infantry guns or other direct HE weapons sighted to hit the outer row of buildings from your beyond the town on your side, looking down roads or between buildings. You can also try TRPs. Blow down the buildings he occupies or HE him in the rubble if he already has.

From the back side of the town, it is usually pretty easy to find spots that can see key points in the town (with a few items to cover several points, a few each), but can't be seen by wide areas on his own side of it. Your men in the middle buildings (1) prevent a fast run through the town, (2) keep his infantry away from your gun positions, and (3) can add their fire, or mop up with a local counterattack, after the guns do their thing.

In silly ASC, a rough sketch of the idea is as follows -

enemy jump-off zone

outer buildings

inner buildings - your infantry

gun positions - sighted down streets or gaps to outer buildings

It is basically the reverse slope idea with the buildings substituted for a ridgeline...

[imported_Wildman]

There are several ways to play this. One effetive way, used against me, was leaving the outside buildings empty and when I occupied them, he had a flamethrower promptly "Light my fire". I ran away and that really put a crimp in my attack.

I couldn't use the building and now I couldn't blow it with DF. By the way I hope BTS looks at that for CMBB

[Snake Eyes]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wildman:

...One effetive way, used against me, was leaving the outside buildings empty and when I occupied them, he had a flamethrower promptly "Light my fire". I ran away and that really put a crimp in my attack...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice ambush tactic. I'll need to make a note of this one!