Guest Lord General MB Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Soldiers, I have come to a very startling conclusion! Winter camo on allied tanks looks bad! No matter waht is done about it it still looks bad! I find that winter Axis looks good as it is very well fitted to how the germans actaully fought. But as I see it the Allied tanks end up looking bad, Hi-res/Lo-res, made by Gordon/Marc...ect The only example of one I like Is the Hi-res Halftracks done by Magua. REASON: NO camo pattern! It looks like the 'tracks have been snown on. Very nice look indeed. I can't stand looking at allied camo armour though. Has ANYONE noticed that?? ------------------ Salute! Lord General Mr. Bill Supreme Commander 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadmaN Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 bump yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 If you don't like the mod, don't use the mod. Mods are funny that way. ------------------ ...and Kingmaker taught me that if you go to any town in Britain, sooner or later the plague will get you. - Offwhite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Lord General MB, I have read that many American units used sheets, not whitewash or white paint during the Battle of the Bulge, so desperate were they for winter camouflage for their AFVs. Maybe you could persuade the mod makers to take a crack at a sheet draped Sherman, for starters. The result would be both different and authentic. Regards, John Kettler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 I also like Magua's snow covered M3's. Tiger also made a snow sprinkled M26 Pershing which still looks nice... that and the Pershings up until recently received no attention mod-wise. Even snow-sprinkled/covered Allied armor looks great. ------------------ "Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ales Dvorak Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Lord, You are right! (Tiger pleaseee) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Personally, the winter camo mods I like best are the ones that give the appearance of an actual "hasty" whitewashing. I can't think of specific ones right now, but they are the ones that actually look like they have brushstrokes of white paint on them. I also like the snowed on halftracks. ------------------ "Fear is for the enemy... Fear and Bullets." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 The one thing that I wonder about the snowed Halftracks, is, should the engine cover still be that coated with Ice and Snow? We are assuming that these halftracks have been running for a while before the battle, so wouldn't it melt off more on the hood and engine casing more than the rest of the vehicle? I really like this mod, but, that was one of the things that I am wondering about.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Hmmm... Good thought! ------------------ "Fear is for the enemy... Fear and Bullets." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 John's right. I've seen lots of pictures, including color photos, from the Battle of the Bulge showing allied vehicles draped with sheets and tablecloths, or covered in very hastily applied (read: cheesy looking) white "camo" schemes. ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Originally posted by Lord General MB: The only example of one I like Is the Hi-res Halftracks done by Magua. REASON: NO camo pattern! It looks like the 'tracks have been snown on. Very nice look indeed. I can't stand looking at allied camo armour though. Has ANYONE noticed that?? I posted this same thought about a week ago. I hope Magua or one of the other modders create a winter set with the snow effect. [This message has been edited by Pvt. Ryan (edited 02-03-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SS Peiper Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 I agree. The only ones I have on my hard drive are Magua's Half-tracks. Magua please do the same for the rest of the allied tanks. SS Peiper P.S. I also think what the other mod makers have done is great if you like that kind of mod(I wish I had the talent to make mods) I myself just like more historical mods, like Forever Babra said If you dont like it dont use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Soldiers, Thanks for the input! I hope that mabye some mod makers read this post and take some of the advice provided here. I agree with you all about the sheet covered "Hasty" white wash typr stuff. But I haven't seen any of these things done in allied type camo. I still love the snowed on look, it really seems to fit in with the whole winter scheme. ------------------ Salute! Lord General Mr. Bill Supreme Commander 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pritzl Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 I don't see what the big complaint is. Look at the screenshots comparing a photo of tanks from the 40th Tank Battalion, 7th Armored Division near St. Vith, Belgium in December, 1944 to a screenshot from CM. Another problem with doing winter mods, especially for the Shermans, is that you change one and they are all going to have to look very similar. So, you either get whitewashed Shermans or bedsheet Shermans. You really can't have both. In looking at photos, I've seen a lot more with the Whitewash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kump Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Hey, Pvt Ryan, it was e-mail, private By the way, I don't try to get mod author's to do anything, I just beg. Magua's snowed effect is the best winterization of vehicles I've seen, regardless if the engine hood should be clear of snow. Its just the best looking thing in CM for snow maps. Sheets, whitewash, or whatever, I personally would just like to see Shermans of Bergman's quality with Magua's wonderful "snowed" touch. It just looks better and it makes the visual come alive. [This message has been edited by kump (edited 02-03-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Soldier, Note the snow on the Sherman. Note the lack of it on the side of the Sherman. That photo shows just what I've been saying: Snowed on look. The CM Sherman looks clearly like it's been painted in a camo scheme. Snowed on look is what I'm looking for.... It just seems to look better. ------------------ Salute! Lord General Mr. Bill Supreme Commander 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Personally I tihnk the whitewash mods either simply have TOO MUCH whitewash coverage, and/or they don't REALLY look like they were painted by hand. I have no real right to complain... but the only winter mods I give a second glance to are the ones that look like realistic whitewash, or NO whitewash, only snow. EDIT: Those two in the CM pic are not too bad... what set are they from? ------------------ "Fear is for the enemy... Fear and Bullets." [This message has been edited by Mr. Clark (edited 02-03-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Nevermind. [This message has been edited by Pvt. Ryan (edited 02-03-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DraGoon Posted February 3, 2001 Share Posted February 3, 2001 Lord General MB Get your troops and march them straight over to CMOutpost now. There you will find the newly posted first batch of Allied Winter Armour from Gordon Molek. Gordon has used his standard issue crystal ball to read the minds of the Allied CM troop commanders (and Kump ) and has prepared some winterised (with an S) versions of Marco's vehicles for your troops to drive to battle. At the moment the M5 Stuart range is available. I believe Maximus got slapped with a rolled up paper for releasing info about other vehicles so I won't do that. But if you were to look here.... http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/015548.html or here http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/015207.html Anyway enough of this, form three ranks, and toodle orf like a good bunch of chaps. CM Outpost Early Birds ------------------ CM Outpost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 Sir, My point: The new stuart I see... Hmmmm, It looks rather CAMO to me! I rest my case! Were are the nice snowed on/ REAL white wash/ sheeted allied tanks??????? Please Magua here my plee: Give us some nice allied tanks like the Halftracks please..... Edit: Notice the new German tanks at the outpost.... There camo and they look great! (this is because allied tanks ARE NOT ment to be cammoed in the winter. It looks wrong). ------------------ Salute! Lord General Mr. Bill Supreme Commander 1st Army [This message has been edited by Lord General MB (edited 02-03-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 Lord General MB, Contrary to popular belief, the Allies did apply winter camouflage beyond just the application of whitewash wholesale to the vehicle. It was certainly not as common as Axis practice, but then again, the Allies were more often on the attack, when any kind of camouflage is less effective. It doesn't matter how much your tank looks like a bush or a pile of snow, bushes and piles of snow don't move. Actually I don't consider any of the Stuarts to be "camouflaged" (in that a camouflage pattern wasn't applied with the whitewash). The Stuart Mk V and M8 HMC are supposed to represent whitewashed vehicles that have the whitewash flaking/wearing off (now it's possible that I didn't do a very good job in conveying that in the artwork). The Stuart Roo in particular has a nice, uneven coat of whitewash that is definitely not an intentional camouflage pattern of any kind. Also, if you look closely you will see residual snow and ice scattered about the vehicles. I just didn't apply it as heavily as Magua did to his halftracks. In my opinion Magua overdid the snow a little (not to denigrate Magua's original effort, they're the halftracks I use). He's also the inspiration that got me started trying to do winter mods. I think that you'll see when I release a sneak peek at the winter Sherman's that I'm currently working on that they (except for the Sherman III/V which are similar to the Stuarts) are also very much in the "worn whitewash" model. Now, if I hear that people overwhelmingly love the snow treatment that Magua applied to his halftracks, I can certainly pile on the snow for these mods (possibly as an option), I just didn't want to hide all the wonderful details that Marco put into the originals under piles of snow (or draped sheets, for that matter). Gordon [This message has been edited by Gordon (edited 02-03-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DraGoon Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 Hi Edit: Gordon beat me to the draw here, my reply is intended for the message by LGMB This depends on whether you want the realistic look or just pleasing graphics I guess. I will speak primarily about how the British handle this, but the photos of US M4s above show the same approach. The method of applying winter cam for British vehicles in the ETO is the same now as it appears to have been during WWII. In our case what would happen was this; Prior to beginning an operation or somtimes during longer winter FTX etc. the RQMS would issue all Troops with tins of Whitewash and some paintbrushes, (usually not enough), the troops would then be directed to apply the whitewash over the normal green/black cam. No two vehicles ended up looking identical but they were all mainly white with green and black patches showing. Splotchy uneven matt whitewash applied by brush, with the original cam showing through. After moderate use of the vehicles in the field some of the whitewash would be worn away by scraping against branches, being walked on with muddy boots etc. This is what IMHO you can see on the side of the M4 in the picture above. The main reason for the use of whitewash rather than paint was that should it suddenly thaw the whitewash can be washed off rapidly. This in turn led to the fact that it wore off fairly easily and had to be replaced often. On a Tank large deposits of snow were swept away to prevent them freezing and blocking the traverse, or fouling gun depression. ..... (this is because allied tanks ARE NOT ment to be cammoed in the winter. It looks wrong). I don't know where this comes from but I can assure you that many Allied Vehicles were indeed whitewashed (cammoed) in a manner similar to that I describe above. British troops went to great extremes to cam their tanks to suit the conditions, it helped keep them alive. I agree that some of the earlier allied winter cam versions are a bit overdone but believe that the latest are getting much closer to the REAL look. BTW I think Magua's winter halftracks are excellent, they represent vehicles that IMHO have not yet been cammoed. [This message has been edited by DraGoon (edited 02-03-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfamily33 Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 A motley crew. Yes, there's not much consistency between camo approaches. Adding snow (not camo) on a skin is tough! Magua's Halftracks and Fernando's Chaffee are my favorites. NOTE, I haven't installed the Moleck/Bergman winter mods yet. I intend to do that once I finish this post. I'll take anybody's allied winter mod over a non-winter skin any day. I can live with the mixed results. In due time, I'm sure more and more winter mods will be added to the mix and you should find enough that meet your tastes. [This message has been edited by bfamily33 (edited 02-03-2001).] [This message has been edited by bfamily33 (edited 02-03-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lord General MB Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 Soldiers, Look It's simple. Allied winter armour (in my opinoin) looks bad. REASON: Everything looks blochted and doesn't seem the visibley fit with the CM envoirment. This has nothing a tall to do with realisim. I don't care if the brits and amricans camoed thier tanks. All I'm saying is that the effort that mod makers have been putting out so far just seems to fall short of looking REALY like a winter allied tank. Instead the same pattern keeps emerging: Blocthes of green underneath/ showing out of a totally white tank. This just doesn't look real. It looks overdone. TO much like german winter tanks. Not real. What I'd love to see would be a Sherman tank, with only the top and part of the tracks covered in some snow. thats it. Thats to me would look like an allied tank IN THE WINTER. Not this gumble of amour/green/whitewash. If the Mod makers out there want to keep on making camoed, gumbled, overdone german style looking allied tanks then fine. I qoute Forever Barabra, "Won't use them" ------------------ Salute! Lord General Mr. Bill Supreme Commander 1st Army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Posted February 4, 2001 Share Posted February 4, 2001 Lord General MB, Unfortunately it's not simple. I have absolutely no problem with anyone (or everyone for that matter) disliking a particular mod of mine. I do them first and foremost for myself, for the satisfaction of doing them, and then if they pass my own internal muster, I share them with others in the hopes that they will also find enjoyment in them. However, I will take exception, and defend, my mods when their authenticity is questioned. I can provide photographic and/or research evidence supporting each and every mod I've created. You seem to be arguing both sides of the realism debate, first that you don't care about realistic treatments and then that the treatments you've seen aren't realistic. Gordon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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