Mudded and Dusted

[LGMB]

Soldiers,

Quick little rant if you don't mind:

Current summer CM tanks look like cartoons. An example of a "good" tank, one that looks real, has some damage, is muddy, camoed nicley, looks 3D not cartoon flat: John Tucker's StuG (available at CMs). Most of Tigers mods looked about halfway, they were muddy, dirty, not cartoonish, but also rather bland and color less. I for one would like to see some more, "real" looking tanks. Another good example of a, "real" tank would be Kwazy's Jagd Panther from MDMP 1. It looks very real, not cartoonish. Some cartoonish mods are Marco Bergamns (Not that I dont like them, infact I use his quite a lot) Shermans. The level of detail is very high, but the actual look is rather flat, almost too good... I may be way off here, but I think most people will agree with me on the issue of, "Clean," and, "Real."

[Marco Bergman]

I object to the label "cartoonish".

This implies bold colours and reduced detail, which I don't feel is a fair statement.

[The Commissar]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Marco Bergman:

I object to the label "cartoonish".

This implies bold colours and reduced detail, which I don't feel is a fair statement.<hr></blockquote>

Marco,

I think what he meant was that while your models are highly detailed, they seem to represent a fresh tank that just rolled out of the factory (which the crew then gung various exquipment on). If I am not mistaken, General MB is asking for some of this stuff to get roughed up. Instead of having a shiny tank, a more realistic effect could be achieved by having the tanks somewhat uglified. Not lessen the detail mind you, but make it look like it went through a few battles and its share of muddy, trampled roads. In your defense, I don't feel "cartoonish" is a proper term either, however.

This is something I would not mind seeing too. As another thread not too long ago asked for, "Bring on the mud, dents, and uglyness!"

[LGMB]

Soldiers,

The Commisar has hit this one on the head of the nail. By no means am I impplying that Marco's work is not excellent, (Like I said, I use it, and love it) I am just saying that some of the models are too shiny, brihgt, whatever. I would certainly like to see some dirtier tanks. Cartoonish may be the wrong word to use in this case, so I will not use it anymore. I'm just saying that most current mods are two bright, or shiny, or new.

[Amidst_Void]

[Marco Bergman]

Semantics aside, there is no apparent concensus on this topic. When I did the US Shermans I slipped in a rather muddy version. One tester liked it; the other 4 hated it. "Too dirty!" "Can't see the detail" etc... So I settled on the current lightly dusted look. I have recieved emails from people who don't even want baggage or markings. So I'm never going to please everyone.

The upcomming (ilness delayed) UK Shermans are dimmer and grimier than the previous ones, and far more kit-cluttered. I shall however consider making a mud set, but it will have to be a seperate pack I suspect (due to download sizes).

[Amidst_Void]

[The Commissar]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Marco Bergman:

Why Marco decided to skip the muddy Sherms. Valid explanation.<hr></blockquote>

Marco,

What we are seeing is the sort of evolution us CMBO mod freaks undergo once in a while.

Remember when everyone suddenly got hyped up on dark terrain after being fed their fill of bright, happy looking textures? Well, same thing here. Many of us who are playing this game for a while get tired of seeing the same thing month after month. So we go post messeges like this to bugger you poor, overworked modders to appease our already spoiled selves

There is nothing wrong with clean textures. It has its own "coolness" to it, like going to a car show and looking at all the purdy autos on their glossy stands. However, the "grime" look also has its own appeal. Kind of like the kick folks get out of watching monster trucks, dirt bike rallies, and topless mud wresling.

[russellmz]

i always try to get the realistic mods. (i list marco's mods among them) a lot of tiger's are halfway, although i think his brown panzer iv is very realistic.

other examples of "real" mods are magua's buildings, half tracks, normandy blue sky, and the gunslinger coloring of mdmp2's jagdtiger.

just my opinion...

take a look at http://www.russellmz.20m.com/mymods.html

http://www.russellmz.20m.com/mymods-buildings.html

[ 11-04-2001: Message edited by: russellmz ]</p>

[LGMB]

Soldiers,

Another example:

Ferdando's mods are beutiful, adn they make up about 70% of my Axis mods, but again they are much to clean. I quickly grow tired of them, simply becuase they are TOO (!) nice. I find it hard to look at them for very long, as they seem to out of context with all the darker, "real" mods. I find it muich easier to look at Kwazy's Jagd Panther, and Bfamily's new tiger, as it is slighlty ruffer. Again, I really do like Ferdando's stuff, but I find it just too out of contex. I'm surching for more real mods now.

In my mind a "real" mod is mod that includes a fair amount of detail, but is also dirty, not to harsh on the eyes (I.e. not to "busy"), has a good ingame, "feel."

One mod I really think fits the bill, is Magua's German Halftracks. Magua's buildings also fit the bill nicly, as they are not too nice, but are pretty anyway.

Commisar:

Again, your totally right. This whole mud thing is just a greedy way of asking for more mods Remember that whole thing I brought up about the "snowy" winter mods vs the camoed winter mods?

[Måkjager]

If my memory serves me correctly Magua's German HT and Kwazys Jagdpanther are excellent cut and paste's of 1/35th scale MODELS.

If you tried to get that amount of detail and lighting effects in by making a "hand made mod" you would be waiting for the cows to come home.

Remember too that essentially bmps are flat...you have to work your butt off to try and get something approaching a visual image that would pass the test of identifying it as a particular vehicle.

I am all the more awed with Marcos skill in working wonders with the Allied armour( u too Gordon ). You cannot imagine how hard it is to try make a decent mod...hours , days weeks...sometimes even months.

I can understand your view point Lord General in that you want a certain look and constant WOW factor...but there is only a certain amout you can do using a digital paint brush.

Just as in the Modelling World , we here in CM land have 2 schools of practice.....cut and pastte or original/semi hand made,

For the first you need very good quality photos of all the sides of the vehicle you intend to mod...then spend time cutting and fitting..

This is an art in its self and requires a large amount of effort.

Making a mod by hand is a whole new ball game....not only have you to get the colours right , add detail , test fit ...but also worry about lighting effects , shadows etc.

All this is already completed for you i f you use a photo...but if you make a mod by hand...well that is up to the modders skill on how well he is able to do it.

It will ALWAYS be a matter of opinion regarding what looks best..... Marco has sought to make his mods with a compromise of good detail and light weathering...and i support him in that...besides there is not a lot of "wheel" on most of the Allied vehicles to mud up.

Continue to make them Marco so as they please YOU...other wise you will go around the twist running from Billy to Jack.

Regards

Måkjager

ps...i am not ranting against anybody...just trying to show that there is another side to the story.

[Gordon]

Another country heard from:

I too do not intend to single out any one poster from this thread, but I'll offer the following insights (as a "modder", whatever that means).

Every couple of days we "modders" are asked "When's such-and-such a vehicle going to be modded", "My XXX's look so bad next to my YYY's", "My Sherman's are wonderful, but they're TOO CLEAN!". Just how long do people think it takes to make "a mod". How many hours stolen from sleep does it take? You'd be amazed at the number of iterations some of these mods go through to make them "just right". So, what to do about people wanting more vehicles modded and more variations of each vehicle without killing the current crop of modders? What to do when people want clean/muddy/camo/sandbagged/foliage Shermans, not to mention accurate markings for every single formation that served in the West?

Simple, have more modders. How did I get into modding in the first place? I loved Marco's original Firefly mod but had seen a photo of a British tank in black/khaki drab camo scheme. I decided I wanted my Fireflies to be camo'd and I asked permission from Marco to give it a try. He consented, and after tons of advice from him, a modder was born. Now, many months (that seem like years) later, based on my own stupidity, I've now taken on the task of providing a complete set of camouflaged UK and US vehicles, snow-covered and whitewashed Allied and Axis vehicles, and a utility program to make using all this mess easier.

So, who's willing to step up to the plate and take a stab at providing a variant set of Marco's or Shane's or Fernando's or Paul's excellent mods with mud, or foliage camouflage (or insert your favorite pet peeve here). The "base canvas" provided by these artists is outstanding, and you'll not find a nicer, more helpful bunch of guys willing to bend over backwards to help you get started. There's always space on my hard-drive for more mods.

So, ask not what the CM:BO community can do for you, but what you can do for the CM:BO community.

Gordon

[Juju]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Gordon:

So, ask not what the CM:BO community can do for you, but what you can do for the CM:BO community.

Gordon<hr></blockquote>

Ah, Well spoken, Gordon. Well spoken indeed.

[danvnuk]

Anyone got any idea where I can get Maguas German Halftracks? I missed them first time around and the link at Combat Addiction is dead.

It would also be real nice if someone could host or generally make available Gunslingers Jagtiger, as featured in Russelmz 'my mods' its really nice, but part of a 23meg zip of Gunslingers vehicle mods! bit of a hefty download for one mod! especially when your still using a modem.

Cheers

[ 11-05-2001: Message edited by: danvnuk ]</p>

[danvnuk]

sort of answering my own question here

but in case anyones interested, I found Maguas German Halftracks at Der Kessel.

[LGMB]

Soldier,

Strike one for the, "real" brigade! Maguas are wonderfull examples of "real mods" :eek:

Gunslingers JT is a nice peace of art too, and It's hand made, not coppied and fitted.

[Gordon]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lord General MB:

Soldier,

Strike one for the, "real" brigade! Maguas are wonderfull examples of "real mods" :eek:

Gunslingers JT is a nice peace of art too, and It's hand made, not coppied and fitted. <hr></blockquote>

Ah, sorry there Mr Bill. IIRC, Gunslinger's JT is just a color-adjusted version of MDMP-2's JT, which is most definitely a cut and paste job from a model (Madmatt or Kwazy Dog, please correct me if I'm wrong, and no disrespect intended). Not that there's anything wrong with that. Some of the nicest mods are in fact based on photos (and some of the worst also).

The only "problem" per-se I have with many of the one-off mods is that they make my forces look like they came from a garage sale. That's one benefit of an "All Fernando", "All Marco", "All etc.) set of vehicles. The units look more consistent. That doesn't stop me from using 'em, it's just my own personal little pet peeve.

Gordon

[Wolfe]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lord General MB:

Gunslingers JT is a nice peace of art too<hr></blockquote>

Eh? Thought it was a straight adaptation of the KT mod from MDMP2. Unless GS did a KT mod other than his subdued set?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>and It's hand made, not coppied and fitted. <hr></blockquote>

If making good mods were that easy *I'd* do it. But unfortunately I have no talent.

Edit:

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Gordon wrote:

Ah, sorry there Mr Bill. IIRC, Gunslinger's JT is just a color-adjusted version of MDMP-2's JT<hr></blockquote>

Beaten to the punch.

- Chris

[ 11-05-2001: Message edited by: Wolfe ]</p>

[Pvt. Ryan]

With Juju's fire and that wonderful smoke mod that someone did, all Shermans will eventually look nearly the same after a few turns.

I appreciate all the mods. I use the ones I like and I don't use the ones I don't like. While I understand LGMB's desire for more authentic looking (weathered) mods, I don't expect the modders to cater to our every whim. Please have the new mods done by the weekend.

[Ligur]

Heh, as it happens I installed some Marco's mods today, and boy they are great. I like the insignia and kit a lot, but would also like to see his superb work with some more battered armor. Reducing details would be a shame, but some dirt and mud on the lower parts and even more kit would make me orgasm. I can't understand how Marco slips all that detail in such small spaces, awesome!

A question to everyone: Where could I get cool Allied halftrack and supporting vehicle mods? CMHQ has some good supporting vehicle mods which I have, but I've yet to find any for allied halftracks, they look quite pale and detail lacking compared to Marco's great armor! I also miss TD mods: They are featured in games very often but I fear I still have the original .bmp's on all allied tank destroyers. They are sort of eye-sores with all the other goodness spread around them.

[mike8g]

Ligur,

have a look here:

Manx' Combat Missions

http://www.combat-missions.net/

Tom's CMHQ

http://home.nexgo.de/tcmhq/TCMHQ.html

They should have magua's halftracks and my TD mod (based on Mike Duplessis TDs):

Marcus

[LGMB]

Soldiers,

Ahh yes... 'Slingers is of course a touched up version of Kwazy's MDMP, which as far as I knew WAS hand made (please corerct if wrong).

[Ligur]

Aces, thanks! Just blew up a Panther with a nifty flanking move just to have my T10, suited in your mod, blasted by a charging Tiger. That damn frontal plating. Nice mod, also dl'ed Magua's halftracks and no complaints about the looks. Its great when we have so many skilled guys contributing!

[russellmz]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mike8g:

They should have magua's halftracks and my TD mod (based on Mike Duplessis TDs):

Marcus<hr></blockquote>

i love those td's! another example of the "real mods"

[LGMB]

Soldier,

Very true! The TD's look as though they were made in someones garage and not in a massive factory, which pumps out clean looking (shiny) models. Gotta love them "real" mods. Another neat one that is kinda half half, is the red, rusted, Panther A that I found at Tom's. Its really quite nice!