The Weekly Lurker Issue #2; Gamey CM, it is a question of taste

[The_Capt]

I was contemplating a new topic for the discussion of the week (CM and 19th century existentialism, or however you spell it) when I noticed that the evil topic of gameyness has resurfaced.

So in an attempt to dispel all doubt on what is right and wrong from the minds of the unwashed masses here is a re-print (and slightly re-edited) of my spin on the subject.

For those who have already read it, I apologize, so go read something else.

My spin on the greatest question of our generation: "When are you being gamey?"

My opinion

All of CM is "gamey", not unlike a fine free range North West Territory ptarmigan. For those who don't know what a ptarmigan is, it is like a partridge (not the dysfunctional 70s family but the bird, although you could shoot and eat the family but I have no idea how they would taste. Although the older sister...what was her name again...whoops, time to come back, this is not that kind of forum).

CM is a game after all and not actual warfare(although if you've spent more than a few months here on the forum you may argue that point). The creators have kept this in mind by allowing players to do, whatever the hell they want(c'ept Fionn of course Hey easy now I joke cause I love). The only "rules" are those agreed upon by two opponents.

In my opinion some members of this community wish to pursue CM as a historical simulator. I personally think this is an empty goal and unattainable. And I can sight dozens of problems between the game and reality, like the little men in CM are NOT REAL!!..BUT it doesn't make it any less fun nor negate their attempt (though somewhat sad in my simple mind) to try.

So if you want to recreate a WWII battle down to "cap badges and weapons sights" go ahead. And try and find like minded players who are also willing to play in this frame. BUT you are not better or superior because you do and we are not lesser people undeserving of the "holy piece of software, sacred binary code upon whom all others look pale and pasty, that's right, put your hands together. Can I have an Amen! Praise Combat Mission!! Ahem, cough cough."

You (and I am talking to mostly Grogs here) have only decided to play the GAME a certain way.

The rest of us (and I group myself)look at CM as a game and will use everything we can in the game to win or (lose as has been the case lately). So if it is a coy of flamethowers lighting up everything in sight like a Mongolian barbecue chef gone postal, and your opponent is OK with it, PLAY ON!

Problems and conflict arise when one camp bumps into the other. A die-in-the wool Grog meets a half-liquored Friday night CM Goon whose girlfriend/wife wants nothing to do with him (or her...well you know what I mean just switch the gender labels around for you girls...both of you). They fail to establish "ground rules" and charge into a doomed battle.

The Grog, with his AFV posters and manuals is slaving over which Allied doctrine to try and modelling his unit purchases against WWII OOBs. "Now did Capt Johnson have a single or gold plated command rating? Well let's see how he fought at Anzio..." and so on.

The Half-Baked Goon; "OK let's see what a map with nothin but Arty FOs and freakin TRPs will do..heh,heh. Oh ya I'll throw in 12 jeeps cause they burn good....man I am hungry....and thirsty. What is taking this guy so f#$4ing long."

Now our two warriors meet. The Grog has a perfect Bn advance as per the "Closing of the Falaise Gap"..."Now which coy actually was forward left..." The Goon sits and giggles "C'mon you pansy assed Brit Sh$t eaters...come to Fritzy....atta boy"

Boom! Arty starts dropping like bird crap at a beach wedding. The Grog "oh my now what was the allied drill...ah yes...very good..oh my he is using it all up at once...I think vonGoosestep tried that in Italy but this is France tsk, tsk."

Goon " WOOOO-HOOO!!....(to sleeping boy/girlfriend)...you see that?! Now for the big stuff, 300mm and another beer...belch".

BOOM, KA-F$#%ing-BOOM!!!

Grog; "Oh my, well let me see an Axis SS Division has ###long range arty assets...oh my! That doesn't seem right. My opponent will very "red-faced" when he sees his mistake, tee-hee....Oh dear there goes Stanley's Coy.."

Goon; "TAKE THAT!! AHHHH-HAHAHAHAHA. I love this freakin game, I swear I saw bodies flyin. Oh sorry dear.....And now for the jeeps."

Jeep assault onto hill 130 is carried out.

Grog; "Now I am afraid he has gone too far...time for a stern chat message.."

Goon; "I wonder what's on Fox or wait I think that Arts channel has Euro-porn on at 11..."

Chat message:

GenAllisterMontegue: "Excuse me for saying but your force purchase seems a little excesive in the Artillery and Recon assets."

JOhnnyRottAN: "What do yu meen?"

GenAllisterMantegue: "Well if you consult "ALL THINGS AXIS" the 1998 edition, you will see that you simply do not have the amounts you are using here."

JOhnnyRottAN: "Hey pal! If it works, it anin't broken...you callin me GAMEY?!!!:{"

And we can all see hard feelings and anger which will result as the exchange degrades into....a forum thread.

As an aside the freaks out there have a slightly different approach, they establish ground rules then quickly proceed to ignore them. ALL'S FAIR IN LUST AND WAR DICK_HEAD!!!!! I RULE!!! WASSSUPPP!!!

So the only rules are ones you mutually decide on and in the long run it is only God you will have to answer to in the end (and yes I am sure He plays CM, big on Allies but he really hates the Sherman). So happy gaming and let's just be friends.

And go our there and kill each other CM style!

Authors Note: Now for any out there who feel that this is a cheap re-post of a former topic to avoid having to actually think this week, you are absolutely right. I figure I can get one more mile out of this piece of work and then will actually have to pump out something original and if you don't like it SCREW YOU DICK_HEAD!!! I RULE!!!! WASSSSAAAAAP!!!

[Fred]

yeah, Jeep rushes...I do like them! My veterans are not even able to say "wazzat", before Jeep after Jeep brews up...I do like those gamey moves.

I remember when 2 of my Volkssturm squads hidden in woods annihilated 7 or 8 jeeps before the Jeep drivers even know how to spell "Volkssturm"...

I like gamey moves...usually whenever one tried some of those smart tactics, they lost...

Fred

[Michael Dorosh]

Aside from the tasteless use of profanity (intended, I can only presume, for comedic effect which I regret to inform you falls very flat) you have provided an interesting if insulting view of the gamer vs. grog question.

However, you seem to have forgotten one other category entirely - The Statistician.

While I admit to being hamstrung, partially, by an inability to see beyond "historical" orders of battle (going back to long hours of ridicule from fellow players of Sniper!, Squad Leader, Firepower, et al), I also don't allow myself to become so engrossed in how many firepower factors a German 44 Panzergrenadier squad missing one man will have at 20, 40, 55, and 98.6 metres, in rain, at high noon, when not suppressed.

I wanted to respond to Spook's comment about Bob Medrow's eye charts in the sniper thread, but didn't want to move that topic back to the top.

While I do indeed have great interest in learning more how historical setups and unit combinations interplayed, I have to wonder where The Statistician fits into the grog-player spectrum.

Quite possibly he is a bit of both - or perhaps a category all his own. But his/her presence surely makes itself felt in all forums for the discussion of wargaming - see Medrow's numbercrunching in the pages of the General. Many letters to the editor regarded this approach as less than useful, some went so far as to credit their abandonment of wargaming to such analysis.

I am not suggesting The Statistician is an enemy to be feared (done and used correctly, statistics can be very useful things indeed), nor a friend to be embraced (personally, from the standpoint of an average to below-average CM player who plays largely as a lark, I think they suck all the fun out of it), but I do want to suggest that your analysis of grog vs. gamer is extremely simplistic.

[Mr. Hankey]

I'm amused by people who think that if you are Axis and use submachine gun squads, you're "gamey". Well, consider this. The typical American platoon setup was to have the machinegun support the infanty. German doctrine was to have infantry support the machine gun. This means that Americans would have, say 40 guys for every machine gun. Germans would have about 5. So in reality, to NOT use submachine gun squads is gamey! Of course, this would suck if you happen to be playing as allies, but there you go. It's not anyone's fault here if the American Brass had their priorities misplaced.

Another thing I find hilarious is people who in general, believe that if you don't buy units that suck, then you're gamey. Me, I play computer picked PBEM mostly with the odd scenario or roll your own. If you allow me to pick my own forces, I'm gonna get the ones that maximize my chances of kicking your ass from one end of the map to the other, no questions asked, whether I'm Axis or Allies. If we decide ahead of time that we won't buy this of that, well, I don't care, but don't give me a boatload if I want a couple of cromwells, or Pershings or an armada of PSW's and Puma's. It's not as if they didn't exist, or something.

[Randl]

"When are you being gamey?"

My answer to that; When the person playing against you, thinks you are. Gaminess is in the eye of the beholder.

Why does one play CM?

1) Because it is an interesting way of competing against other people using WWII military stuff as the tools of the trade. It looks good, sounds good and it's fun.

2)Because a person who is interested in WWII history. In some small limited way they want to try to recreate in a vicarious manner some of the things that happened during the period.

For the person who plays CM from the first gamers perspective, there would be few if any gamey issues. Seems to me that talking gamey issues for them would be a waste of good gaming time

The person who plays CM more for the second historical perspective could have any number of gamey issues.

The question for me then becomes; when is a person being gamey when viewed from _only_ a historical oriented players perspective. How can one get good historical flavor out of what CM has to offer as a game. While at the same time, in the eye of the beholder I am not some kind of reprobate?

--Randl

[bigmac@work]

OHMIGOD Capt... That is one of the single most hilarious things I have ever read in my life! Unfortunately, I read it at work... Therein lies the rub. I had a coworker come over and check on me because he thought I was having some kind of an attack or something. The funniest part about it is in visualizing it as you read. I'm in tears! Thanks for the post and providing one of the best written posts on this (YAWWWWWWNNNN) topic. (If we ignore it, will it just go away?). What is SO HARD about comparing what you want out of your GAME before playing it???

Thanks again Capt. SALUTE!

Bigmac out!

------------------

All CM All the time!

The Dogs of War CM Club

http://members.tripod.com/johnnocmdow/

[Guest *Captain Foobar*]

Great Post, Capt.... Perfect timing too, I think everyone is getting a little too serious about all this

[Monty]

Again a good post Capt.

I like your observations very much and look forward for many more.

This maybe because i myself am a rare ( ? ) combination of:

33 1/3 % Grog

33 1/3 % Goon

33 1/3 % Freak ( YEAH, RIGHT ON !! )

So, i find it always hard to choose my words as you can understand.

Like now, i want to say goodbye but what words shall i use:

- Capt. , Monty salutes you.

- Capt. you old geezer, cya!

- CAPT. YOU SUCK !!

Hmmmm... i choose version 1 this time

Monty aka Moose

[lcm1947]

Outstanding post. I laughed my butt off. Wife thinks I'm nuts, but she didn;t read it. Thank you. What a hoot! As far as gamey, I being new actually prefer both ways. I mean I am learning to play the game and am willing to try both to see which I like best, but I can see people getting upset if the other doesn't play the way he was looking forward to. My simple answer would be to set rules up before hand. I will probably go the non-gamey way myself, but until then I'm buying everything and anything to find out what's best to win. I am at this point in doubt however if buying big makes you the winner. I will see. The one thing that does bother me however is the fact that there are those out there that know what type of units to buy to win. I was hoping that this game was more perfect than that. It's beginning to look like just another game you can perfect and always be the winner. I don't always want to win. That would take the fun out of it for me, well, at least not every time.

[Mannheim Tanker]

LOL! Great post, Capt. I missed it the first time around, but am glad that I saw it this time. I actually didn't see anything gamey in the Friday night-porn-watching-players approach to the game. It was VERY ahistorical, but that's beside the point BIG difference. I hate gamey but love ahistorical play...

Originally posted by The_Capt:

In my opinion some members of this community wish to pursue CM as a historical simulator. I personally think this is an empty goal and unattainable. And I can sight dozens of problems between the game and reality, like the little men in CM are NOT REAL!!..BUT it doesn't make it any less fun nor negate their attempt (though somewhat sad in my simple mind) to try.

So the billions of dollars that the US Army invests in SIMNET, NTC, Grafenwohr, JANUS, blah blah blah is wasted money, eh?

[mensch]

Capt! you made my week.. after 80hours of work, not sleeping much.. ticked off I have not played much..I read this... man you made my day.. I busted my spleen reading this.. thanks from a very tired and exausted Webmonkey.

-----------

www.derkessel.com Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

"So if it is a coy of flamethowers lighting up everything in sight like a Mongolian barbecue chef gone postal, and your opponent is OK with it, PLAY ON!"

-The_Capt

[Schugger]

* weeps tears from cheek * I was just reading this thread when a PBEM came in where I play the Germans and have a truckload of those TRPs and FOs.

Have to open a bottle of beer and make some earthshaking belches to get into this "Goon mood".

Thanks for the laugh, Capt.

[ScoutPL]

I love these threads! They always give me a good idea of who NOT to accept PBEM games from.

I do find it rather ironic, though, that in The Capt's rant on grogs, whom he critisizes for discussing his manhood behind his back (since he apparently cant play and win historically), he actually manages to get rather offensive himself.

[ScoutPL]

"I'm amused by people who think that if you are Axis and use submachine gun squads, you're "gamey". Well, consider this. The typical American platoon setup was to have the machinegun support the infanty. German doctrine was to have infantry support the machine gun. This means that Americans would have, say 40 guys for every machine gun. Germans would have about 5. So in reality, to NOT use submachine gun squads is gamey! Of course, this would suck if you happen to be playing as allies, but there you go. It's not anyone's fault here if the American Brass had their priorities misplaced."

Another "expert" cuts loose.

Frankly, I could care less if you like to use SMG squads. If you do that, and I realize it, I'll just stay about 150 meters from your squads as much as I can and watch them fall over like targets on the KD range. But I have some trouble with your reasoning. The ratio in American squads is actually about 6 to one when you consider the BAR which fulfilled the same role as the LMG in the German squads (squad automatic weapon). You also have to take into account that the Americans were the first to abandon the bolt action rifle for a MASS PRODUCED self loading rifle that greatly increased their firepower (pre war, by the way). Granted the BAR was a little past its hey-day, hence the move towards an attempt to turn the M1919 into a LMG (shoulder stock, pistol grip). But the squad tactics focusing on using firepower to suppress the enemy were there at the beginning. The idea that the riflemen supported the LMG is a misunderstanding, I believe. Yes, it was important to keep the guns firing, they were the squads real source for firepower and security. But you cant clear a building room by room with a MG42 (believe me, its hard enough to do with a M249 SAW). As a Platoon Leader, I often sacrificed manpower in my rifle squads to keep my MG's manned. But once I became ineffective at MANEUVER I became the company support element, and other platoons took over maneuver. I think if you really dug some you would find that the SMG squads were mostly designed for city fighting. It wasnt until the MP44 started replacing the K98 in significant numbers that you saw a great increase in the standard german rifle squads firepower.

[Berlichtingen]

The_Capt

Oh well done sir! Very well done indeed

[The_Capt]

Thanks fellas,

I had a blast writing it. I will post a quick response to a couple of people though;

Micheal. Your comment on my view being simplistic is "bang on". Everybody here is a mix of all three with a dash of "peppa". With the exception of you who seem to contain a healthy dose of vanilla . Seriously you seem like a great guy, let's get together, get loaded and skeet shoot chickens sometime.

ScoutPl. I am hurt, I love Grogs. And you sir, are definitly well entrenched in their camp. So using basic logic. I love you, Mr ScoutPl. In a macho, manly way which does not involve anything sticky. Let's get drunk and skeet shoot chickens, you can bring the WWII K98 and we can test out you theories.

CM till you go blind, then hire a monkey to play for you!

The_Capt

[Croda]

It's good to see that some people can still enjoy the game.

Allow me to comment if you will.

Since purchasing this game, I have been trying to play it more and more historically. Why? I think the fun is in winning the battles that real Generals couldn't - and real Generals didn't use a company of flamethrowers. I like to prove my skill, if only to myself (lord knows I haven't proven it to anyone else!).

That said, let me also say that I really don't know what the hell I'm doing. I don't know in what month the M18 replaced the M10. Before CM I didn't know there were M18s and M10s. So what do I do? When I pick units, I usually choose M10s early war and M18s late war. I feel bad picking M36s because they're good tanks (otherwise referred to around here as "gamey.")

Now, am I being at all historically accurate in my selections? I really don't know. Does that make me "gamey?" I really don't know. Now I realize that there are limits and that if you go hog-wild and choose a battalion of Glider Troops supported by a company of Pershings, then that probably didn't happen...but did it? I really don't know.

So I guess my question in this endless debate of historical gameyness is where is the line drawn. If someone who chooses historically accurate OOBs is not gamey, and someone who chooses ahistorical OOBs for fun is gamey, then what do you call someone who tries to choose historical OOBs but doesn't know what tanks were actually in the 23rd TD Battalion? Is he gamey, stoopid, mensch? I really don't know.

This argument has grown tedious and moronic, really. This I really do know. How many people here play a game of sandlot football and call Holding penalties, or play a pickup game of baseball and call a Balk on the pitcher? They're the rules, but you can choose to ignore them if it suits both sides.

Let's lighten up a bit. If you're opponent is ok with it, have an Assault Boat battle just to do it. I'm right-handed and I once tried to eat left-handed just to see if I could do it. Sometimes I thrown darts lefty as well. The sun still rose the next day.

------------------

Woot! - Maximus2k

Stick around while the clown who is sick does the trick of disaster.

You are quite correct, but sniper is an easier term to use than 'Semi-regular soldier hiding out and shooting enemies unawares.' - wwb_99

The New CessPool

I AM CRODA, ENEMY OF THE SCIENTIFIC PROCESS, EVOLUTIONARY PROCESS AND REPRODUCTIVE PROCESS. PETERNZ OWNS MY SIG FILE AND MY MEAGRE SOUL: ANY REASONABLE OFFER ACCEPTED

[imported_Wildman]

The second of four posts, made in a drunken stupor.

Out of the mouth of babes and drunks?

[Ales Dvorak]

*once*

QB for 1000 pts. unrestricted, computer pick.

I got 750 pts.

Gamey?

Well, Yes!