Lorak Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 by Guy w/ gun: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Yeah I agree with you...If you want deep intellectual gaming, neither RTS or FPS are for you. But I can't help but find it funny when you say there's no time for thought...thats exactly right...these games are supposed to be this way. Your second thought is your last.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Which leads us to my biggest gripe. If there is suppose to be no thinking in an RTS... Then where in the hell do they get the "stratagy" from? Kitty, Loved your rogue spear examples. Have to say I agree with all of them too.... funny how after a while stuff like that just gets taken for granted. Also, I don't mean that as a bad word against Rogue spear. I think it is by far one of the best team based FPS's out there. Right up there with Tribes. Lorak ------------------ "Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking."--William Butler Yeats Cesspool Combatmissionclub Lorak's FTX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kitty: You don't need to know a lot about close quarters combat to notice most of these things, common sense will do. First, the actions and reactions of the terrorists. Sometimes they seem to have Steve Austin's ("Six Million Dollar Man) bionic ear. If I had a nickel for all the times I've been, or seen others, in light armor and moving slowly, not making a sound somehow trigger a panic reaction from a "tango" who's a good 50 or more yards away and not even looking in my direction . . . maybe I just have BO? =/ Next, let's say you've taken up a sniping position. Here comes a tango. Pow! He falls dead to the floor. Now what? Here comes another one. Pow! He falls on top of the first body. Another happens along . . POW! Before you know it you can have a stack of five or more dead terrorists and no matter how big that pile might get, their friends never seem to notice it and keep wandering into your killing zone. =) Similary, have you ever shot a tango w/a suppressed weapon who was standing three feet away from a friend and his friend doesn't seem to even notice when the guy groans and falls dead at his feet? hehe Also, the terrorists shoot far too accurately far too quickly. I'm sure you've noticed this one; peep the top part of your head around a corner and a tango a good 25 or more yards away quickly whirls 45 degrees and hits you dead between the eyes with one shot before you can even blink. Not to mention that one shot is usually being fired from an Uzi which is far from the world's most accurate firearm. I've seen some of the best handgunners in the world compete before using highly modified "race guns." These guys can shoot so fast and do it so accurately it's incredible but even the best of these guys wouldn't be able to make some of the shots the AI terrorists seem to pull off routinely. Another problem I see is that you can sometimes shoot a tango in the upper torso who was unaware of your presence w/a suppressed weapon, you know you hit him and you can tell he felt it because his body will bend violently to the left or right, etc...and he usually grunts or groans or some such thing (I include this information because sometimes in real life people have been shot but are not aware of it) but then what? He snaps back up to his previous state of casual semi-alertness as if nothing had ever happened. Shoot him again and if that one doesn't kill him he'll sometimes do the same thing. I don't know about you, but if I had just been shot and knew that I had been I wouldn't just say, "Ouch," and keep standing straight up in the same spot I got shot in. =) Anyway, I could go on but this post is already way long. Hope this gives you at least something to consider. Please don't misunderstand me, I love playing Rogue Spear and especially Urban Ops, but like people, no game is perfect. =) Kitty <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> All good points and for some reason I didn't remember them. Doh! Yes, I think the of bodies problems is a little ridiculous. I don't think I'd charge out into an area where the bodies were piled up like cord wood! Same with the guy dropping right next to you and no one notices. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WolfLord Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 Oh well, just a quick point here. I'm still a big fan of FPS's (although CRPGs and Combat Mission get most of my time now) which is why the comment about FPS's requiring no skill sorta rubs me the wrong way. I would would invite anyone who agrees with this to play through Thief 1 and 2 inflicting no damage upon AIs or receiving any yourself. I have done this and to say it takes no skill or tactics just dosen't hold up. BTW, any other Thief junkies out there? If so, I very much recommend that you try some of the fan missions on the net now. Many are on par with the originals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy w/gun Posted January 4, 2001 Author Share Posted January 4, 2001 Like I said before, Real-time "strategy" is a misnomer. Real-Time "tactical" is better. When I mean they take no thought, I mean that even if you come up with some really complex tactic to screw over your enemy, it usually becomes simple and repetative after that. You make X amount of X units, check reasorces, guard, skirmish, etc. It's like you go on auto pilot... Yeah anyone who thinks FPS take no skill...you should play an internet game of Quake III or UT...hehe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 Kitty, Yout post about R6 as "realistic" FPS is excellent. I think real people would scream from the bottom of their lungs when they found someone made a hole in body and blood was running out of it like water tap. That is the problem with AI. I think somebody would tell me how HL:CS would be or I should try it online some day. I personally think FPS is not without skill. "Rocket jump" (or "Guass-gun jump" for HL), "Circular gunning", etc are some skills you need to develop. I read that some cheat on FPS, especially competition with money as awards, using bots. I am not sure if it exists also in RTS. I think I am stopping before I go totally off the thread here. See you some time in a CM battleground. Griffin. ------------------ "When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI." "Can't get enough Tank?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBlaque Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 I have to agree with the prior post; FPS does take skill, but often of a different kind. However, if you wish to demonstate your tactical prowess on an FPS, grab yourself Battlecom, RogerWilco, etc., get a few of your friends, and see what "tactically sophisticated" carnage you can reap on Frontline Force (HL Mod) or Counter-strike (another HL Mod) with good communications and a plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 I've been flamed on other forums for mentioning how much I enjoyed TRIBES, so it's nice to see a lot of other Tribes fans here. I think I'm gonna grab it again, as it's only $10 at my Wal-Mart. Then I can play my favorite game (CM) and my favorite FPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy w/gun Posted January 4, 2001 Author Share Posted January 4, 2001 This has gone well...I only wished that some of the more "grogy" people I have seen on this board would have responded... oh well...Im only going on the posts that I have seen in my short time here. Some hard-core grog might have responded and I don't even know it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 Any of you RTS types into Homeworld? ------------------ Nicht Schiessen!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy w/gun Posted January 4, 2001 Author Share Posted January 4, 2001 Yeah...I enjoyed homeworld, if only for the inovative space combat. Reminded me of Ender's Game. That game brought tears to my eyes, it was so beautiful ! As far as gameplay went, I never got deep into it. I tried a few things, like coming out of hyperspace with a group of destroyers and Ion frigs behind the enemy mother ship. I found that most people just let there ships stack in front of the mothership. Coming out of Hyperspace behind made all of them have to make the journey around the mother ship to attack. But coming out too close gave the enemy time to attack your ships as they emerged from hspace. Got that Idea from Star Wars I think . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 Ok, being a veteran of many RTS, like Rainbow 6, RS/UO, Swat 3, Hidden and Dangerous,CS, TFC, and many more, I have to say that most of you just think they are "no-brainer" games that only reflexes count. Well, you are only half right. Sure, it does take quick reflexes to become good, but quick reflexes are linked to quick thinking. And in the case of System Shock 2, thinking is far more than an after-thought. Swat 3 is the best Co-op play multiplay going, and with games such as IGI (I'm Going In) and Hitman Codename 47, thinking and staying stealthy becomes more life-saving than being a quick shot. And, for the same reason everyone wargaming enthuiast should buy CM, any fan of any other type of game should support the good ones in their category. I play Diablo 2 much more than any other game. The point is really not to think, it is to have fun, and it's drawing point for me is that you attain goals by gaining experience. Most of you may not like it, but 3 million people own it, and 2/3rds of them have the same point of view as I do. Does this make them wrong? No way. I like games for the reasons I like them, and only playing one game is a bit too boring for me. CM is great, but so are oter games. Ray ------------------ When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one." Click now for shelter from the Peng thread The Red Army of the Rugged Defense Group Ladder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorak: by Guy w/ gun: Which leads us to my biggest gripe. If there is suppose to be no thinking in an RTS... Then where in the hell do they get the "stratagy" from? Kitty, Loved your rogue spear examples. Have to say I agree with all of them too.... funny how after a while stuff like that just gets taken for granted. Also, I don't mean that as a bad word against Rogue spear. I think it is by far one of the best team based FPS's out there. Right up there with Tribes. Lorak <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thank you, Lorak. And I didn't even mention the ability to snipe effectively at extreme ranges with pistols and shotguns loaded with buckshot. =) But like I said, I also love Spear game. Never heard of Tribes before. I'll have to check it out. K ------------------ ICQ 8273286 http://www.fluffkitty.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Clark Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 I tried the homeworld demo, but found it lacking after playing Starfleet Command. I ultimately gave up on SFC due to the horrid netcode. How is Starfleet Command 2? Anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 Tribes 2 should have been be close but it keeps pushed back! I am not sure what Sierra is trying to do these days but well fwiw, don't hold your breath. Keep play Tribes. Why nobody mentions Thief/Thief 2? Stealth is #1 thing to keep in mind! Except for the those pesky undead, Thief is almost perfect. Now marble floor always makes me very nervous and I try to walk on them tip-toed. Too bad Looking Glass has been dissolved but thank goodness, Thief 3 will happen. About co-op play, my bad exp with Diablo and Baldur's Gate keeps me away from co-op. My friend joint up usualy go on their own and tends to jepadise the whole thing. (Rambolism at work) Arggh! Griffin. ------------------ "When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI." "Can't get enough Tank?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 Hello, I think Homeworld is the most beautiful RTS to date and it is the only 3d RTS that works. Not to mention the coolest mechanics design I find in US games. IIRC, I read that SFC2 has not much difference from SFC1 which both use MPlayer. Campaign server for Dynaverse II is out for testing only. Since the original hosting company, as we are told by Taldren, had given up hosting in the very last minute, Interplay will host the campaign server. But UK version cannot hook onto US Dynaverse II server. I play it from time to time and it is better than SFC1 in many aspects. However, the game is just rushed and it has a number of minor problems. It is enjoyable to me. Too bad Talden is not another BTS... Griffin. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Clark: I tried the homeworld demo, but found it lacking after playing Starfleet Command. I ultimately gave up on SFC due to the horrid netcode. How is Starfleet Command 2? Anyone?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ------------------ "When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI." "Can't get enough Tank?" [This message has been edited by GriffinCheng+ (edited 01-04-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 I disagree that Real Time Strategy is a misnomer. Real Time Tactics would be the misnomer. These games do not feature much in the way of tactical options. This is recognized by the developers of these games who cringe at the term "tank rush." These game do feature lots of strategy. What technology will you research? What buildings/upgrades will you select? Lots ot weaker units, a few powerful ones or a balanced mix of unit types? Where these games fail is in the tactical execution of the combat. The interfaces and game mechanics do not encourage or really allow the tactical nuances you get in CM or Close Combat. There is no such thing as supressive fire, laying smoke, isolating an objective etc. I think Ground Control has been touted as an RTS game that allows the terrain to affect the outcome of engagements between units. As for why some folks feel the need to attack FPS and RTS games, I attribute that to a kind of tribalism. When groups establish themselves one of the things they try to do is differentiate themselves from other groups. In this case wargamers want to establish that their games are better in a variety of ways than the more mainstream titles. The more narrow appeal of wargames and the comparitively smaller number of wargamers contribute to a kind of "elite" self-image. "The few, the proud, the anal retentive wargamers. Maybe you can be one of us." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Canuck Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by StellarRat: Steve, Good points. But I have to say that even before computer games became popular wargames were a very narrow market. I'm pretty sure that my friend and I were the only people in our high school (out of 1500 students) that played detailed wargames. D and D was a lot more popular, but even that was a pretty limited crowd. They're too complicated for kids to understand (< 12) and a lot of adults I know that could learn to play wargames just don't want to think that hard after work. It takes a lot of patience and study to really learn how to play a complicated sim and most people just don't the time or the desire to do it. Also, woman IN GENERAL don't play wargames (or even RTS's or FPS's), so half the market is gone right there. They don't understand why we (men) would want to pretend to kill each other. Must go back to hunter/gatherer instincts. I guess my point is that in the game market realistic wargames have always been a small piece of the pie and this is finally being reflected in the marketplace. They were probably over-represented at the beginning of the PC boom and market forces are just catching up with the game companies. B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree with that statement, for I'm the only student at my high school(of 2000 people) who plays CM,me thinks. The truth of the matter is that sadly, not too many kids my age(14) are interested at all in History/Tactics/CM/WW2 and so on. I pity them because they're missing out on so much! This is why I come here to talk to people with like minded interrests, Thank you sooo much to everyone on the FORUM!!!! !!! If it weren't for you guys, I think I might go plain crazy because I'd have only my History Teacher to talk to, god bless Y'ALL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Canuck Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 Really Thank you!!!! and please forgive any typo's,.... David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
von Lucke Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guy w/gun: Like I said before, Real-time "strategy" is a misnomer. Real-Time "tactical" is better. When I mean they take no thought, I mean that even if you come up with some really complex tactic to screw over your enemy, it usually becomes simple and repetative after that. You make X amount of X units, check reasorces, guard, skirmish, etc. It's like you go on auto pilot... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Exactamundo! I've done the Warcraft - Starcraft - AOE - C&C dance, and it all boils down to knowing the right combo of which race and construction que to choose to start plopping out that one 'special' unit in mass quantities, and then see who can move their mouse from point A to point B the fastest. On the other hand, I take nothing away from FPS games. 2000 was a great year for 'em: Thief 2, System Shock 2, Delta Force 2 (hey, I liked it!), Rogue Spear, HL: OpFor, Deus Ex, and my personal fave, No One Lives Forever. FPS is nothing like RTS, it's just you vs the game environment (and I include other players in there), a very narrow focus --- not you vs fifty-million-mouse-clicks-going-on-all-at-once-on-the-other-side-of-the-map. FPS bring a lot to the table: Immersion in a story and environment most of us will never experience first hand, and a tendency to push the graphics envelope that spur technological improvement. What do RTS games bring besides carpal tunnel syndrome? Oh, and I can't stress enough what a blast NOLF is! Great graphics, voice acting, level design --- and funny as hell! Big plus: The AI is very good: You kill somebody, you better hide the body, because it's friends will notice it and sound the alarm. Enemies are smart enough to run for help, fire from cover, and duck and roll if caught in the open... And did I mention funny? "You look like a man who want's to buy a monkey...". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 Can't agree more and many FPS nowadays require stealth and problem solving, the one in NOLF is quite revolutionary: take the demo level (1st level I think), you can ask a lady to talk with your enemy so that you can sneak past to the other side of the corridor. It is a game no long running around shooting anything that moves. And personally, I find the ladies in NOLF are much better looking than our infamous Ms. Coft...just the fashion is a bit dated to my taste. Yes, the monkey line is from the demo right? (No pun intended) NOLF is next in line right after finishing BG2 (I'm still in Chapter 4!). Griffin. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by von Lucke: Oh, and I can't stress enough what a blast NOLF is! Great graphics, voice acting, level design --- and funny as hell! Big plus: The AI is very good: You kill somebody, you better hide the body, because it's friends will notice it and sound the alarm. Enemies are smart enough to run for help, fire from cover, and duck and roll if caught in the open... And did I mention funny? "You look like a man who want's to buy a monkey...".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ------------------ "When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI." "Can't get enough Tank?" [This message has been edited by GriffinCheng+ (edited 01-04-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanco Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 "Still" in Chapter 4? I thought it was humanly impossible to get past Chapter 2 myself. "Capitalism ain't about choice and expanding people's horizons you know." (BTS) I just like the way that sentence looks, and figured it needed to be drawn one more time at least before this thread fades into oblivion. Why so rude? I'm only guessing here, but I get the picture that CM is The Wargame That Saved The Genre From Itself. Combat Mission is country music in "Mars Attacks", it's the airplane that kills the tank at the last sec in SPR..... just when it seemed that all hope was lost for the wargame genre, CM saved the day. Not only did it save the day, but it actually reversed the 'death' trend that wargames were facing. So CM for a lot of folks here is like a knight in shining armor, and it's not good to criticize knights in shining armor. That's why I think the 'non-wargamer' input is so important on this board. We have no preconceptions, we just think it's a fun game, and can't understand what the big fuss is about dynamic lighting, rosters, or remapping the keyboard. ------------------ DeanCo-- CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted January 4, 2001 Share Posted January 4, 2001 Point taken, but if CM is truly the saviour of wargames, it needs even greater criticism--smash your idols. It's a damn good game, no question, and quite revolutionary in some regards, but it's hardly perfect, and the many of us here with wider gaming experience than just wargames might be able to spot certain weaknesses (which can lead to improvements in future CM games) better than those who exclusively know wargames--and vice versa of course. This is especially true since CM is reminiscent of RTS's and FPS's in certain obvious ways. ------------------ War is cruel and you cannot refine it. --Sherman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deanco Posted January 5, 2001 Share Posted January 5, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gremlin: Point taken, but if CM is truly the saviour of wargames, it needs even greater criticism--smash your idols. It's a damn good game, no question, and quite revolutionary in some regards, but it's hardly perfect, and the many of us here with wider gaming experience than just wargames might be able to spot certain weaknesses (which can lead to improvements in future CM games) better than those who exclusively know wargames--and vice versa of course. This is especially true since CM is reminiscent of RTS's and FPS's in certain obvious ways. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, I guess we're saying the same thing 2 different ways, Gremlin. My point is : the fact that CM reached a wider audience than the hardcore wargame crowd is the best thing that could have happened to them (BTS). In terms of sales, of course, but in terms of user feedback too. OK, we may not know the difference between 2 variants of Sherman tank, but we sure as hell know a fun game when we see one. There's a reason I hang out here, and it sure as hell doesn't have anything to do with the Peng thread. ------------------ DeanCo-- CM interface mods: http://mapage.cybercable.fr/deanco/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted January 5, 2001 Share Posted January 5, 2001 Dean, you hit it on the head. CM is far from a traditional wargame in the simple way that it appeals to any type of wargamer. Me, I am not a grog, and never care to be one. I stay away from most of the ballistic threads and such, cause it bores me to tears. Doesnt mean I don't want a serious game on the subject of war. CM handles all of the cpmplexness of wargames better, while going a few generations above in looks and feel of any wargame to ever come out. Games like TOAW, which i loved dearly, scare the hell out of not-so-grogish gamers, and if you really sit back and think about it, part of it can be attributed to message forums like this. Grogs tend to be very bad at discussing their concerns in a realistic fashion. Kind of like an art critic, who feels the need to bash an artists work, but cant paint or play a note himself. I guess being here so long makes me trust the decisions of Charles on the workings of CM. I really dont think BTS will EVER put out a crappy game, for the pride they seem to take in their work. Can it get better? Hell ya, but I am also sure that not only will BTS try to put as much into these games as they can, but that they will also continue to give many of their customers a real voice as to the tweeks and small details that go into their future products. Ray ------------------ When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one." Click now for shelter from the Peng thread The Red Army of the Rugged Defense Group Ladder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted January 5, 2001 Share Posted January 5, 2001 In addition to the way it would increase emotional immersion in the game, a reason I often suggest massive graphics improvements in future CM games is because I know full well that CM has appealed to a much larger audience than the very small (and commercially marginal) hardcore wargaming crowd. [This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 04-01-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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