Why is everyone so insulting (OT)?

[StellarRat]

Steve,

Good points. But I have to say that even before computer games became popular wargames were a very narrow market. I'm pretty sure that my friend and I were the only people in our high school (out of 1500 students) that played detailed wargames. D and D was a lot more popular, but even that was a pretty limited crowd. They're too complicated for kids to understand (< 12) and a lot of adults I know that could learn to play wargames just don't want to think that hard after work. It takes a lot of patience and study to really learn how to play a complicated sim and most people just don't the time or the desire to do it. Also, woman IN GENERAL don't play wargames (or even RTS's or FPS's), so half the market is gone right there. They don't understand why we (men) would want to pretend to kill each other. Must go back to hunter/gatherer instincts.

I guess my point is that in the game market realistic wargames have always been a small piece of the pie and this is finally being reflected in the marketplace. They were probably over-represented at the beginning of the PC boom and market forces are just catching up with the game companies.

However, they're will always be a small group of people that love realistic wargames and you guys have found them! You're doing a fantastic job!

[Kitty]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by StellarRat:

No idea why. Rogue Spear seems pretty realistic to me and it's an FPS. There are a lot of people on this board that don't seem to any patience with people that they feel do not know as much as they do. I've seen new CM players get flamed for no reason. I don't know if they're immature or just plain mean. I notice that a lot of them can't spell and use poor grammer too. (Worse than mine.) Maybe there's a relationship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spear, realistic? Hee! True it's more realistic than Quake, etc. but there's a lot of stuff in it that's not very true-to-life. I still like it and play it a lot though. =)

I agree with the mean/impatient people statement. Unfortunately, that's just the way some people are no matter what the forum. They pretty much seem to go away though after a while if you ignore them. <shrug>

As for the relationship between poor grammar and spelling and meaness, do you think the fact that they can't spell embitters and angers them so much that they need to lash out at others, or is it that they're so stupid that they can neither spell nor think rationally and therefore they don't know how lame their crabbiness is? Interesting point. =)

Kitty

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ICQ 8273286

http://www.fluffkitty.com

[Guy w/gun]

This is going pretty well.

I'd just like to say that, personally I'll try to give any genre of game a try. I'm VERY VERY VERY lucky that CMBO was my first foray into war games. I have since tried a few other war games and found them to be little more than "maps with micro-machines" as i call them. I find those types of games way too abstract. The reason why I have stuck with CM is the fact that it deals with real-world tactics in a real-word sort of way.

I used to love RTS because of the feeling I got commanding tanks and soldiers. I always

steered clear of war games before CM because they always seemed very abstract and it seemed as if the developers where purposfully making them cryptic and difficult to understand. It all seemed like a "good ol' boys club". Developers would make laughably hard wargames and grognards would just eat it up.

Then I saw CMBO. It blew my friggin mind! Looking at the screenshots in PC gamer, I just knew that this would become one of the best games I had ever played. This is the game I've wanted to play ever since I was a boy. It keeps the two elements of RTS I love and adds so much more. I can truly say that this is one of my favorite games.

As for FPS...that for a long time was my favorite genre. I have fond memories of trying to get my slow-ass 386 to churn out Doom. Ever since I played Doom, I have always loved that genre. I am also a fighting game fan, and multiplayer FPS remind me alot of them. Play alot, get good, kick ass. They're even more fun when it's your best bud's ass your kicking (or vice versa ).

So. This post has been alot more positive than the flamethrower fest i thought it would be .

Sorry if I just insulted someones favorite war game!

Thanks to all for keeping your cool!

[This message has been edited by Guy w/gun (edited 01-03-2001).]

[Mr. Clark]

Actually, we've found that a number of us like a good FPS now and then! Tribes anyone??? It's bargain bin fun for a little CM forum slaughter.

[Lorak]

Mr Clark,

Please don't get me started on tribes. That game was like crack to me for a long time. God I loved it so. No matter... Tribes 2 shouldn't be too much longer in coming. and now with ground vehicles, water ect...

sigh... too many nice games..not enough time.

Lorak

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"Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking."--William Butler Yeats

Cesspool

Combatmissionclub

Lorak's FTX

[GriffinCheng+]

*Sigh* Here it is again...

I think FPS is okay, especially if the game has depth, thoughts and fun. System Shock / 2, Thief / 2, NOLF and Deus Ex comes into mind. Frankly I played FPS, if not less than, wargames. I started with Wolfenstein 3D (who else not?) Shadow Caster and then Doom. It was good when you had a bad day or you got mad with another fellow. (Oh, now I find fighting games like Street Figher or DoA a better choice) Well, may be I am just older.

Now we have more realistic FPS like Rainbow 6, SWAT3, etc. I heard that HL:CS has better ballastic model than R6, anyone?

I tried to played Warcraft II and also online. I dropped this genre altogether. You can't think, you just gather stuff, build/maintain stuff and move you men all the time. It keeps you busy but you don't have time to plan and think. I don't find it is fun to me. I would rather play 4X type games like Master of Orion instead, even though AI cheats a lot. I think a lot RTS-haters get mad at this category of game called itself "strategy" for they think there is not strategic element.

Just my $.02.

Griffin.

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"When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI."

"Can't get enough Tank?"

[This message has been edited by GriffinCheng+ (edited 01-03-2001).]

[StellarRat]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kitty:

Spear, realistic? Hee! True it's more realistic than Quake, etc. but there's a lot of stuff in it that's not very true-to-life. I still like it and play it a lot though. =)

As for the relationship between poor grammar and spelling and meanness, do you think the fact that they can't spell embitters and angers them so much that they need to lash out at others, or is it that they're so stupid that they can neither spell nor think rationally and therefore they don't know how lame their crabbiness is? Interesting point. =)

Kitty

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to admit that I know next to nothing about close quarters combat, but I'd like to hear what you think is unrealistic about Rogue Spear so I can give it some thought.

As far as the bad spelling and grammar goes...I could say something, but I'm not going to in this forum lest I upset Matt or someone who takes my comments the wrong way (and, of course, there are a few people with real learning disabilities out there.) I do, however, find it interesting that some of our non-US/British posters have a better command of written English than some of these obviously American "flamers." That's really sad.

[Guy w/gun]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I tried to played Warcraft II and also online. I dropped this genre altogether. You can't think, you just gather stuff, build/maintain stuff and move you men all the time. It keeps you busy but you don't have time to plan and think. I don't find it is fun to me. I would rather play 4X type games like Master of Orion instead, even though AI cheats a lot. I think a lot RTS-haters get mad at this category of game called itself "strategy" for they think there is not strategic element.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah...I guess real-time "strategy" is disceiving. I remeber when I first played Starcraft (superior to Warcraft IMHO), I was expecting all kinds of manuevers and formations and such. My friend who introduced me to the game just kinda shook his head. He said that the game was in no way related to anything having to do in real life. He said if I was looking for that, I'd be disapointed. As soon as I saw Starcraft (and all RTS) as just "action games" I enjoyed them alot more.

Also, there is a bit of tactics/strategy, to those games. It's all in using the right units in the right situation. For example in Starcraft, High Templar are worthless direct fighetrs, but there psyonic storm spell can destroy tons of infantry type units at once. Want to REALLY screw over your opponents? Build a shuttle and drop a couple Templar behind his resorce gatherers. Cast storm and watch his line of supply go up in smoke.

Most RTS players just build tons of the same units and throw them at each other, which gives rise to the term "click-fest" It becomes a battle of who can build more units. I agree, this gets REALLY old, REALLY fast. But the best players, the ones who win those tournaments in Korea, use all kinds of interesting tactics...some similar to real world ones, Choke points, diversions, pincers, etc.

If all of this sounds gamey and childish, well frankly it is. Just the same way Tolkien, Star Wars and any sort of fantasy thing can be. But RTS do have there good points, and I find that the best players are usually good because they do use tactics.

[Lacky]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by StellarRat:

I do, however, find it interesting that some of our non-US/British posters have a better command of written English than some of these obviously American "flamers." That's really sad. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flame bait!! Flame bait!!

Open all gun ports and prepare to Fire!!!

Seriously, why did you target American's? I often read Aussies, Brits, (and even Finn's), Kiwi's and whatnot's flaming away on this board.

[GriffinCheng+]

Yes, there were a number RTS titles (sorry forget their name) before Starcraft really encourage the use of "tactics" such as high-ground advantages, ambush, patrol and unit shadowing. However, they don't make long and popular like C&C.

I would say RT"S" (or they should be called RTT? ) is just not my cup of tea and people who like RTS are just fine. Leave them alone and leave us so too. Wargame is wargame, RTS is RTS. There is a lot of us who are not grog who likes wargaming know what are the differences and what to expect from CMBO. I think most of us here know the differences well.

Thank goodness the discussion so far is so smooth and intelligent.

Griffin.

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"When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI."

"Can't get enough Tank?"

[Guy w/gun]

Interestingly enough...

Is anyone here familiar with "Brigade Comabat Team"(BCT)? If you head over to www.shrapnelgames.com you can download the demo:

"Brigade Combat Team is the creation of Captain Patrick Proctor, Field Artillery, U. S. Army. It is based on the battalion/brigade level tactical simulator, JANUS, designed for and used by the army to train its senior commanders. This windows-based simulation retains all of the realism of its mainframe-based predecessor, while improving on the user interface by using windows-style point and click commands."

This is a real-time sim of battalion/brigade level combat-Actually used by the U.S. Army. I downloaded the demo and I couldn't make head or tails of it ! Maybe some of the war gamers used to abstract wargames should check it out. Seems like it would be really cool if you took the time to learn how to play!

[Guy w/gun]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I would say RT"S" (or they should be called RTT? ) is just not my cup of tea and people who like RTS are just fine. Leave them alone and leave us so too. Wargame is wargame, RTS is RTS. There is a lot of us who are not grog who likes wargaming know what are the differences and what to expect from CMBO. I think most of us here know the differences well.

Thank goodness the discussion so far is so smooth and intelligent.

Griffin.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here Here!!!

[GriffinCheng+]

*Warning* Someone is advertising the products of competitors of Battlefront.com! *Warning*

BTT.

I have no tried it *yet* but I think it is similar to TacOps (MajorH?). I think this title has been discussed here before. Gotta be somewhere, doing a search....Correct me if I am wrong.

However, I am quite sure this is not the same scale to CMBO. A number of titles are of battlion scale like "The Operation Art of War" (TOAW), "Tigers on the Prowl" (ToP) and "Panthers in the Shadow" (PitS). But these are "hex" based and they all cover battles during WW2 era. I think many grogs here are in a better pos to introduce them.

Griffin.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guy w/gun:

Interestingly enough...

Is anyone here familiar with "Brigade Comabat Team"(BCT)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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"When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI."

"Can't get enough Tank?"

[This message has been edited by GriffinCheng+ (edited 01-03-2001).]

[StellarRat]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lacky:

Flame bait!! Flame bait!!

Open all gun ports and prepare to Fire!!!

Seriously, why did you target American's? I often read Aussies, Brits, (and even Finn's), Kiwi's and whatnot's flaming away on this board.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't targetting anyone in particular, I just think it's sad when non-English speakers have a better command of written English than Americans. I'm an American too, but I can't believe how bad some of our citizens are at reading and writing.

[Guy w/gun]

Oh...yeah...it's not on the scale of CMBO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's larger right?

Anyway, I posted it because I thought it was interesting being real-time and all. I also posted it because I know that a few of the people here also play Steel Beasts (I LOVE IT, though I suck at it), which is also on that website.

I think of CMBO as more of a sim than a "game". To me, alot of the wargames I have seen are named that simply because they allow you to manipulate historically correct units in historical engagments. CMBO is a lot deaper, attempting to simulate some off the deepest elements of WWII combat.

[Chupacabra]

I was a flight sim geek before I found CM. I think I first heard of CM on a Desert Aces forum (before Sierra freaking cancelled it, but that's another story...). Of course, in my wisdom at the time I figured CM would be another over-ambitious wargame that would fall by the wayside. Pity I didn't check it out back then, or I could be a 4000 post forum god by now

Anyway. I have no problem with games that emphasize quick reflexes, like flight sims. I enjoyed Doom, I loved Duke 3D, and the Marathon games caused me to fail a class and possibly to lose a girlfriend as well. More recently, System Shock 2 was the best game I'd ever played until I hit CM, and the few times I've played Counterstrike it's been crack-like addictive.

CC2 was the only RTS game I ever enjoyed (and like many here, I played it to death when it came out), but even CC2 had a relatively sedate pace compared to the C&C style games, which I really don't like. My hand/eye coordination is decent, but it's not up to frantically band-boxing units and sending them off to kill things while making sure that invisible tanks aren't blowing up my base.

And as others have said, the quality level for most "commercial" games in the past few years has been pretty dismal. Games that require patches to work properly aren't games that I want to spend my money on. When the good examples of the "twitch" genres come out, they can be awfully good.

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Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super

[von Lucke]

As usual, this thread seems to have mutated into something only marginally resembling the header --- so I guess I'll wrassle this li'l doggie back into the herd:

Rude? Hell, compared to most boards out there (don't even get me started on Usenet!), this place is a refuge of polite sanity and rational critique! (Well, if you stay away from the Cess-pool that is). Sure, there will always be a goodly percentage of smart-asses around here, but that's only because the higher IQ required to play strategy / sims makes for the sort of quick wit that likes to show itself off.

As far as any sort of "gaming elitism" goes, I think every genre has it's plusses and minuses, and not every genre appeals to evey player. (Speaking as a game addict who buys just about every decent title that comes along, I know whereof I speak).

Like most hardcore "wargamers" I started out with die-cut counters and cardboard maps and rule books as thick as an encyclopedia (but usually 20 times more cryptic). I prefer the slower pace of turn-based games, because I get to think about what I'm doing --- or have the luxury of changing my mind in the middle. Hey, the computer is an incredible boon to wargaming: What used to take weeks to finish can now be done in an afternoon. CM just took what us "grogs" had been using our imaginations to visualize, and allowed us to actually see it in 3D. Finally everybody else (the "Nintendo Generation" especially) got to see what it was we'd been trying to explain to them all along...

That's not to say I don't have a thing for FPS games: I've been hooked on Flight sims for years, and when I first saw Arena: The Elder Scrolls running on a friends computer, I went out and bought a brand new rig the next day just so I could play it --- and when I'm feeling particularly testy, I'll play a little Counter-Strike online.

But RTS? Unless it has a "pause" button, I'm not into it. Sorry, but it reminds me too much of that old "I Love Lucy" episode with the conveyer belt and the pies (ask yr Mom, ya young whipper-snapper!).

[Gremlin]

While wargames certainly get less attention and distribution than they used to, I've been gaming for a couple decades (computer, arcade, console, tabletop wargames, pen & paper RPG's, etc.), and I don't recall computer wargames ever being a truly dominant and wildly popular genre. I see it as being like classical music: it's a refined genre for those with refined tastes (snobbish sounding or not, I don't care ), and will necessarily have a small market, especially in the culturally and intellectually deprived USA. (Disclaimer: I'm an American and make that last dig based on first-hand experience )

[This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 04-01-2001).]

[Stefan Fredriksson]

Perhaps off-topic, but not quite.

Shouldn't RTS-games be called RTT-games instead?

RTT as in Real Time Tactics.

Or is it that "strategy" sounds cooler than "tactics".

Btw, I consider CM to be a tactical game aswell.

[Lawyer]

I'm with von lucke. I've bought and tried a bunch of games starting with DOS Doom on a 66mz system. At this stage, I realize that I most enjoy WW2-based games where I can blow things up, apply strategy and tactics, and take turns to get my thoughts together. I know what I'm fighting for and against, and I understand the weapons and victory conditions pretty well.

I don't have the reflexes and time to play FPS weil. I'm also turned off by the shallow depth, endless monsters, stupid search & find missions, and general immaturity of the player community.

I do like WW2 flight sims and continue to play them when I can, but they are harder for me to play and less fulfilling from at strategy viewpoint.

I look forward to "Medal of Honor" and the other WW2 FPS games on the way. Maybe I'll give them a shot.

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Only the Lawyer knows what Evil lurks in the minds of men....

[Gremlin]

Maximums wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Well I think where some of the hostility comes from can be split up into two viewpoints.

One is the FPS fans come to this game and they make comment on CM's "sub-par" graphics based on what the latest FPS can produce. But on the reality side of things is that FPS games don't push nearly as many polygons as CM does. They just push a little bit with extravagant textures on the ones they do push with usually the FastFile format. Which is an apparently optimized method to do that.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When comparing engines, remember that regardless of poly counts, the CM engine, AFAIK, doesn't have to deal with the complex light and texture mapping you see in many other 3D games. There's no dynamic lighting or shadows, no bump or reflection mapping, no cube mapping, no per-pixel shading, etc. (Correct me if I'm wrong here, but that's how it appears.) It's not simply a question of comparing poly counts.

Note too that CM isn't optimized to take advantage of current hardware, as Steve notes in this interview: "There will be improvements for sure. Some require no coding, like increasing the resolution of the graphics (which were aimed at a 8MB VRAM card!)."

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War is cruel and you cannot refine it. --Sherman

[Sitting Duck]

Hello All!

Lots of games mentioned. I don't think I have played any of them, but I was wondering if anyone on the board ever played Descent? I always enjoyed playing that game in it's various versions...especially the head-to-head stuff.

My problem was that it always made me feel ill after playing for more than about 20 minutes. I would get a big headache that just wouldn't quit.

I'd be interested to hear a recommendation on which of the games mentioned that might I try out?

I don't find that the comments made on this board are insulting. There are exceptions...on certain topics and perhaps by certain users.

But, bear in mind that when opinions differ (and when don't they?), there is always some element of conflict. There is an art to writing/speaking in a way where an attack on an idea or opinion won't be construed as insulting or as a personal attack. Some are better than others. Some people are more sensitive, too.

I would venture that there are circumstances in which it would be justified to be insulting and to attack both the opinion and the person who offers the opinion. I can think of a few posts on this board that deserved such treatment.

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Steve of BTS - "With a company our size, every sale does in fact count (unlike every vote in certain assbackwards states )."

[Bruno Weiss]

To answer the thread question. I'd say it's a sociological thing. That is to say; as long as one is driving a FORD, then it seems just fine, and when you slap some polish on it and shine the hubs, it seems even better. Satisfied, you ride around to work and to the store, and don't think anything else of it. But, if and when you acquire a Rolls Royce the world changes a little. Not only would you not consider even getting into a FORD any longer, you tend to snub your nose at those who drive it. After all, you now have the best, you've tasted the best, your there!

Now, I see this as a good analogy. Once one plays CM, then, your there! You've seen and experienced the best, you know what it is like and therefore tend to (rightly or wrongly), snub your nose at the FORD's so to speak. One of those, human things.

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"Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses

open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth."

-Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916)

[This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 01-03-2001).]

[Guy w/gun]

Ok. No one has hit upon what I thought they would...so I'll bring it up...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>CC2 was the only RTS game I ever enjoyed (and like many here, I played it to death when it came out), but even CC2 had a relatively sedate pace compared to the C&C style games, which I really don't like. My hand/eye coordination is decent, but it's not up to frantically band-boxing units and sending them off to kill things while making sure that invisible tanks aren't blowing up my base.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But RTS? Unless it has a "pause" button, I'm not into it. Sorry, but it reminds me too much of that old "I Love Lucy" episode with the conveyer belt and the pies (ask yr Mom, ya young whipper-snapper!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I don't have the reflexes and time to play FPS weil. I'm also turned off by the shallow depth, endless monsters, stupid search & find missions<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok heres my 2 cents:

I would venture to say that many people on this board are middle age, or atleast older than me (i'm 21). Yes I did grow up on "Nintendo" as you so put it, and so therefore "twitch" is second nature. I personally don't find RTS very frantic at all. I just get into the grove of checking, planning, making etc and the game goes very smoothly. I can't help but laugh when I hear you guys saying you "have no time to think" in RTS. Your not supposed to think. Same thing with FPS. Why do you think Id software is named "Id"? There named after the Freudian(spelling) principle of Id...unthinking self survival. And if you play FPS (and RTS so some extent) you have to use "Id".

Yeah I agree with you...If you want deep intellectual gaming, neither RTS or FPS are for you. But I can't help but find it funny when you say there's no time for thought...thats exactly right...these games are supposed to be this way. Your second thought is your last.

Anyway, to continue to my main point. I think theres just a generation gap. Hell, if my mother like playing RTS and FPS, I'd be a little frightened (this is a woman who watched one episode of southpark and said she couldn't understand it because they were "talking toofast" )

I just thought that this would be the main part off the discussion. I can understand how someone who has played a lot of wargames all there life would pick up a RTS or FPS and be completely turned off by it.

[Kitty]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by StellarRat:

I have to admit that I know next to nothing about close quarters combat, but I'd like to hear what you think is unrealistic about Rogue Spear so I can give it some thought.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't need to know a lot about close quarters combat to notice most of these things, common sense will do. First, the actions and reactions of the terrorists. Sometimes they seem to have Steve Austin's ("Six Million Dollar Man) bionic ear. If I had a nickel for all the times I've been, or seen others, in light armor and moving slowly, not making a sound somehow trigger a panic reaction from a "tango" who's a good 50 or more yards away and not even looking in my direction . . . maybe I just have BO? =/

Next, let's say you've taken up a sniping position. Here comes a tango. Pow! He falls dead to the floor. Now what? Here comes another one. Pow! He falls on top of the first body. Another happens along . . POW!

Before you know it you can have a stack of five or more dead terrorists and no matter how big that pile might get, their friends never seem to notice it and keep wandering into your killing zone. =)

Similary, have you ever shot a tango w/a suppressed weapon who was standing three feet away from a friend and his friend doesn't seem to even notice when the guy groans and falls dead at his feet? hehe

Also, the terrorists shoot far too accurately far too quickly. I'm sure you've noticed this one; peep the top part of your head around a corner and a tango a good 25 or more yards away quickly whirls 45 degrees and hits you dead between the eyes with one shot before you can even blink. Not to mention that one shot is usually being fired from an Uzi which is far from the world's most accurate firearm. I've seen some of the best handgunners in the world compete before using highly modified "race guns." These guys can shoot so fast and do it so accurately it's incredible but even the best of these guys wouldn't be able to make some of the shots the AI terrorists seem to pull off routinely.

Another problem I see is that you can sometimes shoot a tango in the upper torso who was unaware of your presence w/a suppressed weapon, you know you hit him and you can tell he felt it because his body will bend violently to the left or right, etc...and he usually grunts or groans or some such thing (I include this information because sometimes in real life people have been shot but are not aware of it) but then what? He snaps back up to his previous state of casual semi-alertness as if nothing had ever happened. Shoot him again and if that one doesn't kill him he'll sometimes do the same thing. I don't know about you, but if I had just been shot and knew that I had been I wouldn't just say, "Ouch," and keep standing straight up in the same spot I got shot in. =)

Anyway, I could go on but this post is already way long. Hope this gives you at least something to consider. Please don't misunderstand me, I love playing Rogue Spear and especially Urban Ops, but like people, no game is perfect. =)

Kitty

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ICQ 8273286

http://www.fluffkitty.com