Why is everyone so insulting (OT)?

[Guy w/gun]

After reading a little ways into the "Disarm tank crew" post below, i can't help but asking...why is everyone so insulting to the FPS and RTS genre? I know its all in good fun but I still feel compeled to post this (yeah i did read the part about insta-infantry...lol, thats rich). RTS and FPS never claimed to be realistic(Close Comabat aside), even when they're set in "historical" time periods. And if anyone says that they take no skill, I really beg to differ, especially when it comes to FPS.

I understand why you all may not like them, especially because of the stuff mentioned in the BTS manifesto about how they clog up the market. But I as a GAMER first and formost can see the appeal all generes hold for there fans. If you all don't consider yourselves gamers (which is what CMBO, Quake III, C&C are...GAMES), then I understand fully.

/Rant off

If i get flammed, I don't care. I'm just curious.

[Stuka]

Hehe, you asked for it.....

[Guest Madmatt]

<If i get flammed, I don't care. I'm just curious.>

Yes, But I DO care so let this be a pre-emptive warning to all of you grogs sharpening those verbal daggers. Be nice and answer the question posed without getting too emotional or inflamatory. It's a good question and to be honest I personally don't see anything wrong with the FPS mentality.

Hell look at CMHQ, where do you THINK I got the idea for the presentation style that I use? I feel that standard marketing techniques for wargames pretty much SUCK and can take a cue from the FPS market.

Madmatt

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If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ!

Combat Mission HQ

CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission and home of the CMMC

CMHQ-Annex

Host of the Combat Mission WebRing

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 01-02-2001).]

[StellarRat]

No idea why. Rogue Spear seems pretty realistic to me and it's an FPS. There are a lot of people on this board that don't seem to any patience with people that they feel do not know as much as they do. I've seen new CM players get flamed for no reason. I don't know if they're immature or just plain mean. I notice that a lot of them can't spell and use poor grammer too. (Worse than mine.) Maybe there's a relationship.

[Lorak]

Umm, understnadable question. Personaly as I myself play a little bit of all games. FPS(tribes,rogue spear), RTS (close combat,starcraft), CMBO and several other inbetween catagories.

I agree FPS's do take some skill. Much like Pac man takes skill. There really aren't any "tactics" involved. Just a big frag fest. Unless of couse you migrate towards the team based FPS's, such as the examples I play. I find those interesting.

RTS... what can I say? I really enjoyed CC2. CC3 and CC4 umm.. stunk. There is some tactics involved in your RTS's but really it boils down to learning a "trick" that works. Also seems to become more of a click fest than a stratagy game in the later stages.

A lot of the swings taken at the RTS crowd. Stem from peoples beliefs. You have those that claim that only Real-time is realistic, and others that argue that with real-time there is no deep thinking involved.

Personaly I find myself in the turn based group. But I will acknoledge a good RTS game when I see it. My bigest problem with RTS games (such as the CC series) is the amount of give and take to realisum to make it playable. To really make a great WW2 sim you need lots of units and the ability to fight decent sized battles. In CC this just isn't possible. You physically can not hope to real time control 50 or 60 units, (CC allows 15). I much perfer going turn-based or hybrid(like CMBO) and being able to actualy manage all my units with some form of intelligence.

Just my .02

Lorak

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"Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking."--William Butler Yeats

Cesspool

Combatmissionclub

Lorak's FTX

[Maximus]

Well I think where some of the hostility comes from can be split up into two viewpoints.

One is the FPS fans come to this game and they make comment on CM's "sub-par" graphics based on what the latest FPS can produce. But on the reality side of things is that FPS games don't push nearly as many polygons as CM does. They just push a little bit with extravagant textures on the ones they do push with usually the FastFile format. Which is an apparently optimized method to do that.

This benchmark can be tested even with an average 400-500 MHz computer right now. A computer of such CPU speed along with a comparible video card from 16MB to 32MB can handle any FPS quite well. But put the same system up along with a large CM map and hi-res textures and you'll see just how much VRAM and CPU CM takes to run well.

And secondly for the RTS fans, they come here, at least they did at first back in the Beta days, wanting CM to be a RTS game. With a game as complex as CM with lots of things going on all across the board, there is definately no way a human player could keep up with and make strategically sound judgements if CM was an RTS game. You see, CM's Tac-AI even makes up for what a human player would try to do in an RTS, by giving the units and men a conscious of their own to remain alive. There is no way a human can "click" faster than a computer. So therefore most RTS games' AI has to be dumbed down to compensate for this. CM doesn't have to sacrifice any AI, because the player can take as long as he/she wishes before hitting that GO! button.

I suppose others will chime in sooner or later. But that's my take on the subject.

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"Live by the sword, live a good LONG life!"-Minsc, BGII

[Guy w/gun]

First off:

Thank you, Matt

Second:

Let them sharpen those daggers, I want to hear there reasoning. Im not skeptical, like I said, just curious. I just hope that all who truly oppose those types of games will really be honest as to why they dislike them, and not use the arguments that I think they're going to use. So please, don't use the same old stuff about "twitch" or "no thought requiered" and lets get down to the real discussion.

So now I'm fully prepared, and yes I most certainly have asked for it !

[Lorak]

LoL at your sig Maximus.

So...just for you.

Never mess with a man and his Hamster!

By the way... (off topic).

You plan on getting neverwinter nights?

Was thinking of letting my computer stay on-line 24/7 with a module when it comes out.

Lorak

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"Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking."--William Butler Yeats

Cesspool

Combatmissionclub

Lorak's FTX

[Guy w/gun]

Those are very good points.

I would like to say that most of the RTS and FPS who come and attack CMBO with stupid arguments are morons. I dislike that even more than I dislike the insults I based this post on.

I would also like to point out that by RTS, I meant more of the reasorce gathering type, like C&C and Starcraft. Hard-Core wargamers that bash those games are like flight simmers basing the old arcade game "Afterburner". Starcraft and C&C are GAMES. They never claimed to be anything more.

[Guy w/gun]

HA....lol...."Live by the sword, Live a good LOOOONG Life!!!!!

Thats one of the best signatures I've seen yet !

[This message has been edited by Guy w/gun (edited 01-02-2001).]

[DraGoon]

--Owns Up

I had great fun playing CC in its various versions on a LAN before CM, I never thought of it as more than a video game.

I play a fair bit of Rogue Spear with my sons on the LAN, (because I have to to get them to accept a challenge at CM). I have to admit to customising some of the weapons to make them more realistic (IMHO ). The obverse of that is that my youngest has just designed our village as a CM level, (I will have to talk to him about his choice of forces though).

I took a long time getting CM because I wasn't convinced of the WEGO system. (I know, Fool)

Bottom Line: Whatever flips your switches is fine by me. I got just as much satisfaction sniping (not camping ) someone sneaky at RS as I do seeing their Ubertank disintegrate from a flanking shot.

BTW I have to add that every other game I have is gathering dust since I bought CM and started the endless activity of applying mods. Fun for years to come.

[StellarRat]

Actually, flight sims were probably the original FPS's if you really think about it and you'd be hard-pressed to find someone that doesn't think Falcon 4.0 doesn't require brains and skill! I don't like RTS's because I like to think about each move, but I don't have a problem with anyone that likes to play them. They're just not my style. I just can't do a good job controlling more than half a dozen units at once when everything's in motion. I guess that's why the Army has a chain of command, HE! HE!

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guy w/gun:

HA....lol...."Live by the sword, Live a good LOOOONG Life!!!!!

Thats one of the best signatures I've seen yet !

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What was that?

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"Live by the sword, live a good LOOONG life!"-Minsc, BGII

"Boo points, I punch."--Minsc, BGII

[Mr. Clark]

Personally I really LIKE FPS games. I'm not much for the standard Q3 deathmatch type game, but give me a good engine and a cap the flag option and I'm there.

I'm looking forward to seeing the stuff that will be coming out for the PS2. They are making some innovations in the FPS market in the games coming out this year... everything from RPG elements (ala Deus ex) to a game where EVERYTHING takes damage (Red Faction. The game will also have vehicles to drive and rocket launchers with heat scopes... to see and kill enemies behind walls.)

The World is Not Enough is supposedly gonna be a FPS that you can solve w/o taking a shot (via the stealth system, and the "use-able background objects" system)

I'll play any game thats fun.

The thing I DO NOT enjoy about the FPS genre is some of the fan bases and clans. I've had far too many otherwise good games ruined by an entire clan joining one team, no matter how uneven it makes the teams, and then being completely insulting as they mop the floor with your far outnumbered team.

Just my opinions...

[retarded_keydet]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maximus:

What was that?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I always thought that the evil guy who would yell,"Stop touching me!" was hilarious.... though I can't remember his name for the life of me

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There was a long silence of rememberance for the dead, to which I added these names:

Ernst Neubach, Lensen, Wiener, Wesreidau, Prinz, Solma, Hoth, Olensheim, Sperlovski, Smellens, Dunde, Kellerman, Freivitch, Ballers, Frosch, Woortenbeck, Siemenlies...

I refuse to add Paula to that list, and I shall never forget the names of Hals, or Lindberg, or Pferham, or Wollers. Their memory lves within me.

There is another man, whom I must forget. He was called Guy Sajer.

[Maximus]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorak:

By the way... (off topic).

You plan on getting neverwinter nights?

Was thinking of letting my computer stay on-line 24/7 with a module when it comes out.

Lorak

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, I think I'm going to get Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor. It's the sequel to the original D&D Gold Box series from '88. It's like BGII, but with a 3D mesh for the terrain. The characters/monsters look as detailed as painted D&D miniatures. And it's turn-based as per the P&P game with a drop-down orders menu system very similar to CM's. Turns can be timed down to a psuedo real-time feel.

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"Live by the sword, live a good LOOONG life!"-Minsc, BGII

"Boo points, I punch."--Minsc, BGII

[Mr. Clark]

WOW Max! Thanks for that link! I had not heard of that D&D game... but it looks and sounds AMAZING! Plus, it has a random dungeon and quest generator... adding to replay (hopefully like CM's QB's).

As long as it will work on my system, you sold me! Is it going to have any online capability?

[aka_tom_w]

I'm not sure if I have anything really new to add here......

BUT,

Other Than Combat Mission, I REALLY, really enjoy multi-player Age of Empires.

It is ONE great game for 4, 5, or 6 guys to get together and hook up their computers to form and instant termporary lan to test their tactical skills. Sure its resource gathering, sure its RTS, SURE it uses hit points OK?

ITs Still really fun to form alliances, and back stab and gang up and hang one (usually deserving) player out to dry. For really fun Multi-player (MORE than two) entertainment (sort like Risk WAS) in an easy/simple sort of tactical way, Age of Empires Gets my vote.

But if just one guy is Available I'm more than happy to go one on one with CM.

Both are Great Games and given the setting or circumstance I would say they are equally entertaining.

AND before all you grogs slam all the RTS, and FPS "gamers" who like this game, please remember while I'm SURE BTS will NOT,

(and should not) cater to this market segment, they would be equally foolish to IGNORE that market segement completely, because as an identifiable market segement, they/we (whatever?) BUY ALOT of video games. They/We may easily represent up to 50% of their actual sales.

But that said even if the grogs here and desire for MORE realism drive the future design changes in this Game, video gamers and FPS and RTS players will still enjoy the attention to detail and the adrenalin rush and the GREAT fog of war in this strategy game that make it entertaining and fun to play and enjoyable in a different way than all other games that I know of,

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 01-02-2001).]

[Lorak]

Mr Clark.

The on-line version of the D&D world is going to be Neverwinter Nights. Made by the same people as Balder's gate ect.. Looks absolutly amazing. You can play single player or one person in an on-line world. Totally allows Human DM'ing also. They are also packing the bulding tool with it also.

So..Everyone will be able to custom build D&D modules to run on there own systems. Each system(PC) allows upto 64 players on it at the same time. Also as many system as you like can be combined through Portals to form as big a world as you like. For example you are playing on my machine and you want to travel t another city(module) you will Portal to someone else's machine that is running it. They system sounds pretty damn cool. I'll give a couple links for it.

Neverwinter Nights offical site.

Planet Neverwinter.

Check it out, I think you will be pleased.

Lorak

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"Do not wait to strike till the iron is hot; but make it hot by striking."--William Butler Yeats

Cesspool

Combatmissionclub

Lorak's FTX

[Mr. Clark]

Damn... NWN looks great too.

Now I just wish that the two were combined!

I REALLY like the idea of PoR's turn based gameplay (allows more options and feels more like tabletop roleplaying), while NWN's online "worlds" are a great idea! (I just hope they work! I've heard bad things so far about Starfleet Command 2's online campaign "worlds" that were supposed to work in a similiar fashion)

Thanks for the links!

BTW, anyone else out there with a Playstation 2? I'd like to meet someone else with the system before the online capabilities are implemented. (Sorry for mentioning Playstation 2 here... please hold back that arty fire... I know wargames and console systems have never mixed well.)

[Guest Big Time Software]

Personally, I think the hardcore wargaming crowd is bitter about the demise of the once great and proud genre of games. What killed off wargaming? In the opinion of many (and I partially share this theory) RTS and FPS games were responsible. How? By "dumbing down" the whole range of games to little more than hand-eye "twitch" games with very shallow tactics and game depth. Figure out a few tricks and you shall go on to glory!

Now, before anybody cries fowl I must say that I really love a good RTS and/or FPS game. Most are absolute crap (something else that bugs hardcore wargamers), but the few that shine do so quite brightly. The problem is that the growth of FPS and RTS games has, for economic and short-sighted publisher planning reasons, indirectly killed wargaming. How many RTS games came out last year vs. FPS? Possibly about the same number. How many wargames came out vs. either? Ouch

The consumer can only consume what is put in front of it. If the bulk of the choices are FPS and RTS, that is all they will buy since the vast majority of consumers don't do more than pick up the first thing they see. This reinforces market trends, which has a negative effect on anything not being pushed forward by mass marketing. So if something, like wargames, are not seen as having "mass market potential", they are actively discriminated against by the people who have the power to set trends (i.e. big Publishers). Capitalism ain't about choice and expanding people's horizons you know

TV is similar in that it has been held responsible for increasing weight problems, lack of attention, violence, lethargy, reduced literacy, etc. in kids today. TV itself is not to blame (just like RTS/FPS aren't to blame), but there is more than a little truth in the connections drawn by its critics.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 01-02-2001).]

[Mr. Clark]

Steve, I agree with your comments on the subject. Might I ask what FPS you enjoy?

Also, I'd like to add that for role-playing games and wargames, I MUCH prefer a turn based style, rather than the real time thing. I like the options and time that turn based games allow. More all around depth in my opinion.

That said, a game like Rogue Spear, while a tactical game, is GREAT in real time, thanks to the ability to easily control your squad, and the FPS viewpoint that places you right in the action, rather than a "click fest."

When it comes to FPS games, I think depth and OPTIONS are the key. Just shooting at things the same way over and over is gonna get old for just about anybody, no matter how pretty the game is. (EDIT: I guess this could really be said for any game type though... I personally found THE SIMS to get old fast, for me, due to repetitive gameplay. Once again, just my opinion)

[This message has been edited by Mr. Clark (edited 01-02-2001).]

[aka_tom_w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

Personally, I think the hardcore wargaming crowd is bitter about the demise of the once great and proud genre of games. What killed off wargaming? .........

(snip)

This reinforces market trends, which has a negative effect on anything not being pushed forward by mass marketing. Capitalism ain't about choice and expanding people's horizons you know

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok..

But depsite ALL this you have found success (major scuccess I would hope) with this delightful release.

Its hard to understand how you believe things like "In the opinion of many (and I partially share this theory) RTS and FPS games were responsible. How? By "dumbing down" the whole range of games to little more than hand-eye "twitch" games with very shallow tactics and game depth."

Yet you and Charles have taken a risk and it DID pay off and we are ALL (even the RTS video gamers) VERY grateful for your vision of a BETTER wargame.

Perhaps if Hasbro's freshly released Squad Leader, really flops and your Combat Mission is witnessed to be such a huge success this trend may be slightly reversed.

We can only hope!

thanks for the insight

-tom w

[Loki]

I don't get into FPS too much these days. The last one that I felt was reall good was Hidden and Dangerous. Most of the FPS seem to mainly push graphics on CPUs. Thats a good thing, it helps drive the industry and paves the way for good 3D games like CM.Unfortunately asside from graphics they don't add much.

I get into a few RTS games. Seven Kings is a great one with lots of strategy. Unfortunately most are just clones and do not push the limit of imaginative programming.They simple focus on rapid clicking and selecting massed troops for a single mad melee.

I have seen alot of CM players bashed here for being fans of the CC series. I must admitt at one point I liked the series also. The game engine however is unrealistic. For the past 20 years us wargammers have played games that just haven't evolved. Who remembers countless hours of Kampfgruppe, Mechbrigade or Crusade in Europe? Untill CM the current crop have not advanced much. Steel Panthers, Campaign Serires etc are just graphicly beefed up versions of the games we played in the 80's.

I guess IMO the bottom line is, RTS and FPS games come and go, but wargammers tend to stay for life.By nature we don't jump on bandwagons, but can most RTS or FPS gamers say the same?

I hope no one takes any of this the wrong way. Its just how I feel. I try to be kind and help newcomers.If the genre doesn't grow, then we'll be stuck with Kampfgruppe clones for another 20 years and while there will be a demand for cutting edge wargames, it just wouldn't be worth gaming company's time or money to produce them.

So welcome RTS and FPS fans to CM,noe lets make all company's produce superior games, of any genre.

[Mr. Clark]

Here Here Loki. I'm not really in what you would call the high end income bracket... $50 for a game HURTS! I'm tired as hell of spending $50 on a piece of trash.

Here's hoping that we are seeing the game market in an upswing of quality.

CM, Tribes, Rainbow 6, UT, Shogun, Starcraft, Goldeneye (for N64), and DOA2 (for PS2)... those are the best game money I have ever spent. CM the best of all, with Tribes a close second. (There was just something about the huge maps in Tribes... nothing like standing gaurd of your base, in an arctic wasteland, watching the horizon for enemies, waiting for the autoturrets to start firing, and preparing for battle... sigh...)