Ideas how to solve the VL 'problem' in CM2?

[CavScout]

Originally posted by Tiger:

I dunno. Since the locations of the flags are apparent to both sides from the set-up phase onward, I find it hard to label a last-turn attack on a flag as "gamey". You've had the entire battle to figure out some way to defend or hold "your" victory location. If a last turn movement of enemy forces changes the VL to "neutral" then you didn't control that locale like you thought you did. If it changes control of the VL to the other side then you really didn't "own" it in the first place. It matters not whether it was an out-of-ammo enemy mortar unit or a fresh tank or infantry squad that caused the change of VL "ownership".

That said, I can not remember any instance where someone attacking on the last turn a VL for my side that has cost me the game.

It's cost points but my take was that I just never had sufficient units properly positioned to make sure it didn't happen. I think this "victory flag problem" is not such a problem as it is being made out to be

Do you guys somehow consider "defense" or "holding" a flag to mean impermeable?

[karch]

if you really want to use random turn ending with cm QBs.... why not try this

1. setup the qb to have slightly more turns than you need - say 35 instead of 30

2. agree with you oponent on what turn to start rolling to end.. say 28

3. on turn 28 until 35, use a web based dice roolin site that will email the die roll to both members..

http://www.irony.com/mailroll.html

if you want a 10% chance, roll 1 10 sided die with 10 ending the game.. all others keep playing.

4. when a stop roll has been made, both sides request cease fire..

what do you think??

[karch]

bump... just curious if anyone feels the method above would be an ad-hoc solution.

[russellmz]

my opinion is that if the game had lasted just one more turn the ad hoc force would have been blasted to dust, it is a gamey tactic designed to rob the defending side.

(after a hard fight you may only have a few squads to hold the flag, and not enough to do a forward defense to annhilate the enemy's last zook, shreck, empty mortar, and the "1 man left of 9" squads)

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russellmz,

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[Leonidas]

The discussion here seems upside down. The problem is not about defensive perimeters or determining what pops a flag. The problem is that when the battle ends is unrelated to what's happening on the battlefield. Having a fixed or random ending turn doesn't fix this. It's still jarring and silly when there's a raging battle going on, and the game ends.

The end of the battle should be when the fighting stops. CM is full of complex formulas, so I propose another: battle termination.

Actually, we already have a little of this. If both sides have morale below a certain point, the battle automatically ends. BTS should expand this idea. I would give the attacker a set number of turns to start the fighting - maybe half or three quarters of the normal battle length. After that 'safe zone,' the game calculates battle termination at the end of each turn, with rules like:

-If anybody died in the last turn, the battle will continue.

-If infantry units are within X meters of each other and one side has ammo, the battle is more likely to continue.

-If one player is calling for a cease fire, the battle is less likely to continue.

-If a player still has a FO with ammo and a cool head, the battle is more likely to continue.

-If a player has a mobile AFV with HE ammo (blast value > 30), then the battle is more likely to continue.

-As time wears on, the battle is less likely to continue.

The players would have some information on the battle termination score each turn, but only based on information within their knowledge.

I know we could disagree about the specifics of a formula like this. But what about the general idea of ending the battle once the fighting is mostly over?

[CavScout]

Leonidas has some good points. Another solution is to not end untill all flags are uncontested, by either side. No contested flags. If the game is scheduled to end on turn 30, begining at turn 30 the game checks the status of each flag. If none are contested it ends the game.

[Moon]

Actually, Leonidas, there IS something like this in CM already. Cannot remember the exact formula (it's been too long ago), but a game can and will end prematurely if nothing happens. Maybe it's a little on the soft side, though, seeing as probably not one of the thousands of CM players ran into this previously?

I remember back from the alpha days that we were playing with a correct setting for something like this, and where it gets iffy really is the beginning part of a battle. Back then, if nothing happened after, say, 10 turns, the game tended to end. If Steve and Charles don't hop in here by themselves, I'll try to remember to ask them about it.

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"An hour has 60 minutes, each minute in action has a thousand dangers."

- Karl-Heinz Gauch, CO 1st Panzerspähkompanie, 12th SS Panzerdivision

[Scipio]

Originally posted by Leonidas:

The problem is that when the battle ends is unrelated to what's happening on the battlefield. Having a fixed or random ending turn doesn't fix this. It's still jarring and silly when there's a raging battle going on, and the game ends.

The end of the battle should be when the fighting stops. CM is full of complex formulas, so I propose another: battle termination.

I agree absolutly. That's the VERY BEST idea I've read in this discussion. But I think it will be difficult to realize.

Something that should kept in mind - the games nows about the total strengh of both forces, and at some points it's simple math that one side won't be able to change the endresult significant. Maybe it's a first step if the programm recomment to cease fire?

BTW, I'm not sure, but doesn't end a Close Combat scenario automatical, too? Do somebody know how they calculate this?

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[This message has been edited by Scipio (edited 02-22-2001).]

[nijis]

I would suggest a scoring method borrowed from Diplomacy and from Avalon Hill's War At Sea/Victory in the Pacific series, among others -- start counting VPs from flags at some point before the game ends. Instead of a big flag being worth 300 points at the end of the game, have it be worth 30 points per turn held for each of the last ten turns, for example. That rewards both staying power as well as an attacker who can mount a swift and efficient assault. It would also represent abstractly the length of time you need to hold a hill for the rest of the regiment to transit the valley.

If the game ends early, via either the current system or Close Combat-style mutual exhaustion or whatever, then the flag-holder should of course get credit for each turn that the game would have lasted, had it gone to its natural length.

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[This message has been edited by nijis (edited 02-23-2001).]

[TeAcH]

Just another example of why this needs to be fixed.

During the last turn of a TCPIP game, my opponent who managed to get an empty universal carrier around my flank, charged it at a large VL next to some woods and change it to a question mark. All in sixty seconds. Granted, All I had at that one was a crew since my front lines were busy defending (He was attacking).

The point is, VLs should be fought for and not raced to.

TeAcH

[badinfo]

I also think Leonidas has a brilliant idea. I have always hated the last turn being know ahead of time, since the days of Panzerblitz and SL. This would be ideal. Maybe for CM 2?

Cavscouts idea is also a solid one.

I know that there are exceptional cases of unarmed troops attacking in history, how many of these occured on the Western Front in 44-45? I tend to believe that a mortar crew out of ammo is going to pull out of the battle, not wander round looking for the enemy with an empty mortar tube. For one thing they dont want to die, just like everyone else, for another they have a piece of equipment they are responsible for and are not likely to throw it away, unless they know that the war is over in 10 seconds. Real troops have to worry bout the next fight, something that isnt relavent in most CM engagements.

[This message has been edited by badinfo (edited 03-02-2001).]

[KiwiJoe]

My idea is this:

All flags start out as ? like normal.

Once a flag is taken it turns to thats country's colours, as normal. If the flag is held and uncontesed for 5 turns then it can't be changed to ?. All forces in the area have to be destroyed or routed to change the flag to a new countries colours.

This should stop people holding back till the last few turens before they attack.