Viceroy Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Need some tips for a good German tank for attacking. I want something that provides a good bang for the buck .... no super tanks please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shatter Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Originally posted by Viceroy: Need some tips for a good German tank for attacking. I want something that provides a good bang for the buck .... no super tanks please. I know you said no supertanks, do you mean Large or what exactly. If you tired of Ktigers and Jtigers like I am, I have recently shifted attention to the Panther. The Panther has good armor and a powerful gun and good speed. One other plus is it looks great with all the mods available. I have had very little luck with the Panzers. Panzers in my oppinion are Germans version of the Sherman when knock out they usually light up. I have recently destroyed 3 opponents with total victories, while supporting my infantry with Panthers. Most of my games against others people rarely end in a total victory. So maybe it is just luck that my last 3 games have been total victories while using the Panthers. Hope this helps. [This message has been edited by Shatter (edited 02-27-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarmo Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Real hard (impossible) to say what's best. In any case I'd suggest packing a few StuHs, the 105mm's come in handy when you need to rout a bunch of infantry. Alternatively you can use Wespes or Hummels but you'll need to be real careful with those. Then you'll need AT capable vehicles. It's a quantity vs quality issue, basic Stugs are OK. But so are Panthers. Tiger gives an good performance in both roles, so you could also get by with a pure tiger force. Another way is to just get AT tanks and handle the infantry with heavy arty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 There is no easy answer. It depends on style of play. I usually by a at least one anchor to my AT force like a veteran Panther or Tiger. If the woods in the area the battle is going is not maxed out then I usually go with some JagdpanzerIV or Hetzer to cover and overwatch. Now if I have a lot of points I will start to expand on my main mobile AT force by adding either more panthers or Tigers or even supporting PanzerIV tanks. Then if there is room I will get some quicker armor for the flanks like a Lynx or even a Hotchkiss. Then I spend some for HE support (mostly Stugs and Stuh's). Down below is a standard buy (very generic) and not really based on points but theory. Artillery Force 3-4 81mm mortars for suppression 1 105 or bigger for kills Recon Force 2 Lynx and some split squads from the Assault force AT Force 1 Tiger 2 Panthers 4 Hetzers Assault Force 1-3 Coy of Infantry 4 Stug III 1 Stuh 42 Reserve Platoon of Infantry 3 Trucks 1 Kubelwagen 2 Wespes or Marders (optional) All above again is in theory and what would be optimal and not based on points. I play mostly allies actually and my methods are about the same. Hope this helps ------------------ Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb -Kryton of Red Dwarf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Good post Priest. Let me add: Don't lure by the low price of rockets, they are pretty much useless in the scale of CMBO and they can sometimes be hazardous to your own troop, even they are pretty far from your intended target area. Personally, if I am allowed, I would buy at least 4 platoons of infantry rather than 1 STuG + 3 plattons. Cause, you can use the extra platoon as reserve and finish up the job when your front line men are exhausted. I would rather take a STuH and a STuG cause STuG is not pretty good TD as Hetzers do. Also I find 1 PzVIE worths better than 2 PzIVs. Moreover, remember that under all circumstances, "God is on the side with last running Tank and Platoon (in full strength)". Griffin. ------------------ "When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI." "Can't get enough Tank?" [This message has been edited by GriffinCheng+ (edited 02-27-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 I will agree with the Panther as the prime choice for ANY mission, wether it be offensive or defensive. Good all around performances gun/mobility/armor make it invaluable. Just be careful of flank shots and except for the Late G version be wary of the gun manlet shot trap. I know you said no supertanks, but by 1944 the Tiger I and it's faults don't make it as dominant as some people make, namely to those awful armor angles. But the 88mm gun does offer good armor penetration and better HE against infantry than the Panther's 75mm. Better to level buildings with. And about the suggestion for the StuG, be careful about engaging long range targets since I've found them to be quite inaccurate at extended ranges. ------------------ "Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 With the new slope modifiers in the tungsten penetration code (this make penetration MORE difficult now) as a player who usually prefers the Allies, I FEAR the Panther the most. I think it has VERY good long range accuracy GREAT penetration and is very hard to kill frontally. Just one Panther under the command of skilled German player can really be a large thorn in your side (ok ok, a REAL Pain in the a** ) if the German player, plays to the strengths of that Panther and stands off with it, making it impossible for the Allied units to break through his line and get a good flank shot at the thing. In more than one game (one was a bad luck of the draw QB where the computer picked forces) a lone Panther, that proved impossible to KO, was easily the difference victory and defeat. I have been defeated a few times in scenario's where one Panther was used VERY effectively to KO all my next to useless Sherm 75's. If the Allies have no GOOD (like 76's) Tank killers and if denied any opportunity for a flank shot at that Panther, those damn tanks can cut through the rest of your armoured units like a hot knife through butter. So as the German player, buy one Panther and a few Stugs or Hezters and plenty of infantry with some SMG's and you are Set! Then get the Panther into a GOOD hull down location and DON'T Move and don't allow ANYTHING to get a flank shot at your Panther and you win be on you way to GLORIUS Victory! -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 aka_tom_w wrote: With the new slope modifiers in the tungsten penetration code (this make penetration MORE difficult now) as a player who usually prefers the Allies, I FEAR the Panther the most. FYI the Panthers turret armour is sloped very little, 76 HVAP(tungsten) will still penetrate it at 1000m or more. It's the high-sloped TDs that have little to fear now at range from tungsten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Agreed Tom. However in some unfortunate situations, a Panther can still be killed, okay I am just avoid spreading incorrect ideas of Panther the Ubertank. 1. Fireflies. Nasty -- in a duel situation, it is only a matter who got hit first ( in all ranges) which is usually KO on first hit. 2. I have lost my lone Panther G (late) to a Churchill VIII HEAT round over 600m hull down! Lucky shot? Very bad luck. 3. I recently surronded a Panther G with a M5 Stuart + a M8 Hound team. One lucky frontal shot from the M5 @ <300m scrap the hull-down Panther. Plus, no loss on my side. My advice, watch out to those Commonwealth tanks, Herr kommader. Griffin. ------------------ "When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI." "Can't get enough Tank?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuka Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 I just took out 2 of my opponents Panthers at 800m+ with an unsupported M10 ( from head on!) Go figure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viceroy Posted February 27, 2001 Author Share Posted February 27, 2001 Thanks for the advice. I think you guys are right when you say there is no "one" answer. I found all your comments useful and I'll have a bash with the Tigers or Panthers and see how it works. BTW agree with the comments about the rockets being useless ..... but I sure love the noise they make Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Petersson Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Originally posted by aka_tom_w: ... get the Panther into a GOOD hull down location and DON'T Move and don't allow ANYTHING to get a flank shot at your Panther ...= Use it for defense only. My suggestion would be the Tiger or PzKw IV. - The thick side armour of the Tiger allows it to take the lead instead of sitting way back. - The somewhat faster turret on the PzKw IV will give it some margin too, especially if you have them work in pairs or more. Cheers Olle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Fredriksson Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 I vote Panther, from recent experience. In a scenario, seriously out-numbered a Panther saved the day. First Sherman takes a pot-shot from about 200 meters, misses. He lives about 2 seconds after that. Next two Shermans come in from the right, and this was almost embarrassing. First shot by Sherman is Turret-hit, shot breaks up, from 63 meters (!). Panther swings turret, kablam, Sherman history. Next Sherman shots, from about 80 meters, turret hit, ricochet. Panther starts to swing turret, next shot from Sherman, sloshhh, hit the dirt *between* the tracks of the Panther. Panther laughs, fires, and down goes the last Mr Sherman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal DI FOLCO Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Panther, definitely. Good speed, mobility, well sloped armor, superb AT weapon...but caliber somewhat small vs Inf. Tiger is good also, but clearly slower, and LESS well armored from front (but better on the sides..). Less precise gun, but heavier caliber... For an attack I'd go for Panthers and say a StuH for infantry support. A Puma can be handy too, very good AC, can punch a Sherman out, but paper thin armor...Super Reco vehicle in a way ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croda Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 I like to use 2 Panthers up with a Tiger and a Wespe in overwatch/reserve. The Tiger covers the flanks of the Panthers, allowing them to focus on dealing with things to the front. The Wespe makes up for the Panther's lack of anti-inf. I tried this with 3 Tigers, and the slow Turret and slow ROF were not able to make up for the benefit of having the 88 and extra armor. Although I suppose 2 Tigers up and 1 Panther back may work well also. I'll have to try that out. ------------------ Woot! - Maximus2k The New CessPool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wwb_99 Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Try a Leporad 2A5. Works like a charm. Too bad it won't be availiable until 50 years after CM. WWB ------------------ Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say, Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 You people and your tigers and panthers!Saying all that bad stuff abot the Panzer IV. Geesh! When CM2 comes out it will be a whole new ballgame. You will pray for the day when those Panzer IV's are made available and the Panther will be little more than a pipe dream. ANd the King Tiger -- Ha! That's just a myth, a legend, science fiction even... I vote for the Panzer IVG and the Panzer IIIE! They got CLASS. ------------------ And King Xerxes looked to King Leonidas and spoke. "Our Archers will rain arrows down upon you to blot out the sun." And King Leonidas replied: "Then we will fight in the shade." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoePrivate Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Everyone's mileage will vary of course, but since you said attacking I'm assuming anti-tank work isn't the main focus. I prefer the versatility of the Tiger, it has good armour, a good gun with an excellent HE punch and lots of ammo. The problem with the Panther is the 75 has a mediocre HE blast. When you see it exchange shots with an AT gun for no effect, you will wish you had an 88, which can usually knockout an AT gun with one or two shots. StuH42s or 251/9s can supplement the Tiger for infantry work, as well a TD in overwatch to deal with enemy tanks. Anything can and will work in the end, just have to find what fits your style of play best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Originally posted by GriffinCheng+: Don't lure by the low price of rockets, they are pretty much useless in the scale of CMBO and they can sometimes be hazardous to your own troop, even they are pretty far from your intended target area. I don't understand what rockets have to do with selecting German tanks, but I won't stand by and let my favorite weapon system be badmouthed. What you is a shortcoming, I think is a benefit. One of the big benefits of rockets is you don't need the detailed targeting information like you do with lemming artillery. Since no matter what you do, rockets are going to do their own thing seeking out the enemy. So let them! Best to point them in general direction of the enemy and let the rockets figure out what's best. Another is benefit is - they are *very* hazardous. Lots of *big* explosions. And of course they're cheap. So you can afford to take a chance with them. But if you guess wrong where the enemy is (and so point your rockets at the wrong place) no harm no foul. Some rockets will undoubtedly overcome your inaccurate guess, and end up hitting the enemy anyway. One of my recent 'random act of rockets' immobilized an enemy tank. It was on the same side of the map where I pointed my rockets, so maybe someone could claim I was aiming for it. But the truth is I was pointing my rockets at the woods where the enemy infantry seemed to be gathering, and the rocket seeked out and immobilized the tank on it's own. ------------------ Check out http://www.geocities.com/funfacts2001/ or http://hyperion.spaceports.com/~funfacts/ or http://www.britwar.co.uk/members/FunFacts/ for military documents written during WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 Originally posted by Jasper: Since no matter what you do, rockets are going to do their own thing seeking out the enemy. Seek out the enemy!?! You're lucky if half your rockets find the board, much less seek out the enemy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
109 Gustav Posted February 27, 2001 Share Posted February 27, 2001 To use rockets correctly, don't bother shooting at dug in infantry. Use them to shoot at advancing infantry in the open. The attacker will either be forced to take cover, or press ahead regardless of casualties. If he does the former, a large part of his offense will be delayed for awhile, upsetting his timetable. If he keeps moving, the random factor of the rockets will be sure to cut down some of his troops. ------------------ Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat. But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown. And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing. The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, and more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 If you going to use rockets just aim for the middle of the enemies half of the map. You might hit something either that or you'll build some nice improved positions for his infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ace Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 So what would you suggest if one were using Fionn's rules preventing the use of the beasties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasoncawley@ameritech.net Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 If you want realistic (no "super-tanks" please, you said) then buy 1 veteran and 3 regular Pz. IVs. Costs only 500 points. 8 MGs with tons of ammo, and ~200 rounds of 75mm HE (twice as much of both, as 2 vet Panthers which cost the same). Turrets to switch rapidly from target to target. The vanilla guns are still good enough to kill most Allied AFVs from any angle (only heavy Churchills and Pershings excepted). Carries one complete platoon of infantry, or alternately can carry all the slow foot teams of a typical infantry company. Then just remember to have infantry scout for them, the same as the Allies have to do, so you don't get ambushed to easily or without making the ambushers pay. Only risk one in an advance, until you find that area is clear. Two on overwatch, including the vet, most of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GriffinCheng+ Posted February 28, 2001 Share Posted February 28, 2001 Haha, Jasper, don't you realise I am following-up Priest post? Read. No offense taken. I agree from my little expereince rockets do get lucky hit but well, it is far less likely than a M5 Straut killing a Panther. Griffin. Originally posted by Jasper: I don't understand what rockets have to do with selecting German tanks, but I won't stand by and let my favorite weapon system be badmouthed. ------------------ "When you find your PBEM opportents too hard to beat, there is always the AI." "Can't get enough Tank?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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