PVLLVS MAXIMVS Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stacheldraht: I've always felt that, at least against human opponents, QB's represent the game in its "purest" form. Just men, machines, and the minds controlling them, unconstrained by historical events (other the ones that gave rise to the unit specs) or a map designer's will. Tactics, pure and simple: here's random terrain and some (potentially random) units; now see what you can do with them. From that perspective, among others, the ST and other rarities are arguably more worthy of inclusion in the game than numerous slight variations of more common vehicles, precisely because of the more unusual or unique tactics that can evolve in using the unusual vehicles. I.e., a higher number of more diverse units can yield more tactical complexity. Of course, this view is predicated on the perspective that sees CM as a tactics game rooted in history, as opposed to a history game that's tactical.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Acutally, I rather agree with most of your points, espeically about including diversity in the units. However, I tend to think of a tactical exercize as having a goal that requires some thought and planning to achieve in the face of oposition. With a quickbattle your goals are limited to "Kill the bad guys". Especially considering how poor (IMO) the computer is at placing Victory Flags. In a scenario you can have options like "get as many units off the map alive as you can", or "capture the Sturmtiger at all costs". Also, I feel that user created maps make for more interesting tactical problems because they are more likely to have unusual and unique topography, like that mission "canyon of doom" (I forget who made it, since Im away from the game, but DAMN that was a fun mission) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacheldraht Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>With a quickbattle your goals are limited to "Kill the bad guys". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No argument there, but killing the bad guys entails so much that I don't find that to be much of a limitation in practice. I do hope that in CM2 we can use user-created maps in QB's, save QB maps for future use, and so forth. That way, players can get maximum use out of a map with really interesting terrain, whether randomly or hand created. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 I will drive mine right up to Stevs house and demand that they make me a beta tester for CM3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stacheldraht: From that perspective, among others, the ST and other rarities are arguably more worthy of inclusion in the game than numerous slight variations of more common vehicles, precisely because of the more unusual or unique tactics that can evolve in using the unusual vehicles. I.e., a higher number of more diverse units can yield more tactical complexity. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> In general I think you have a very good point. The thing I find odd is that those making this point (not necessarily you in particular) very rarely argue for the inclusion of the Pz 1a so they can explore its "unusual tactics". They invariably want to explore the "unique tactics" of the Brummbar or Panther II or Maus or IS-3. However, the inclusion of the weak vehicles allows for a much greater level of tactical flexibility than the very powerful vehicles. In fact, the entire goal of the Tiger IIs and Panther IIs was to remove as much "thinking" from their employment as possible by removing any flaws. Just point them at their targets and shoot. The "ultimate" tank is one that connot be destroyed by the enemy, and hence you no longer ahve to concern yourself with those bothersome "tactics" that most people jsut screw up anyway. The ST is the same way. Everyone wants "tactical flexibility" but how tactically savvy do you have to be to point a monster that is impervious to most return fire at the village and blow it away when you have a weapon with a blast large enough that supposedly there is no such thing as "missing"? If you want real tactical challenge, try to take that village supported by conscript volkstuurm supported by Pz IIs with 20mm main guns. Or figure out a way to kill Matildas with 37mm cannons on an early Pz III. The "uber-tanks" are almost never very tactically challenging, or even particularly interesting. A Firefly is a hell of a lot more challenging to get to work than a Panther, but can be just as effective in the righ hands. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacheldraht Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 In principle, I thoroughly agree with you, Jeff. I don't mind using supposed "übertanks," nor do I mind if my opponents employ them, assuming we're not using Fionn's rules I find, though, that a few less powerful tanks are more challenging and interesting (and often more potent) to use than one supposedly almighty one. (Of course, all vehicles in CM have their weaknesses to exploit.) I think the ST will actually count as one of the weaker obscurities when faced with a handful of Soviet tanks in the hands of a competent player. That should keep the Axis player on his or her toes. (And, fwiw, I'm really looking forward taking some of the earlier Panzers for a spin in CM2.) It's like they say: tactics is about making the best of what you've got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted June 20, 2001 Author Share Posted June 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman: Everyone wants "tactical flexibility" but how tactically savvy do you have to be to point a monster that is impervious to most return fire at the village and blow it away when you have a weapon with a blast large enough that supposedly there is no such thing as "missing"?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> First, I don't think the ST is impervious to enemy fire. Like any other asset, it must be used with caution or it will turn into a burning hulk (hmmm, I wonder how big a crater 14 380mm rockets cooking off at the same time would make -- BTS will you model that? ) Secondly, facing that big honking rocket will present a REAL challenge. How does one deploy when faced with such a threat? This is not moot. Real men faced such a challenge. Thirdly, the threat of the ST is probably as fearsome as the reality of its punch. Especially when it takes so long to reload. So, do you shoot or do you just threaten? When is the best time to fire? Is this tactical flexibility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Maenpaa Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snake Eyes: So, do you shoot or do you just threaten? When is the best time to fire? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> But doesn't the tacAI decide when to shoot? So isn't it easy for the opponent to lure the ST to "waste" that valuable shot on some trivial target? Ari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa: But doesn't the tacAI decide when to shoot? So isn't it easy for the opponent to lure the ST to "waste" that valuable shot on some trivial target?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Good point. You might have to use an ambush command for it while moving so that it doesn't open up too soon. Of course CM2 won't have an ambush command but "covered arc" might work close enough to be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veteran of the psychic wars Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 still the sturmtiger is one sexy motherf****r. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by veteran of the psychic wars: still the sturmtiger is one sexy motherf****r.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Dude, the thing looks like a toaster. A Panther, now that is nice looking vehicle... Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 I suspect that the Sturmtiger will not fire without specific orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 Good heavens, I've stumbled into Grog Porn Weekly. Where is Ethan when you need him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhammer Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 1. Will it unduly attract enemy targeting? Is all that metal of Rubertanks (Rare Super Tanks) an eye magnet? 2. With such low ROF units (what is the ROF of a KV II?) will CM:BB add a new command, TacAI Off, so that these things won't mistakenly shoot at undesirable targets? Now how would i use it if things are pretty much like CM:BO, why gamey of course Eye magnetism so other units could go on by. Save the limited ammo for blowing apart buildings, hell if the damn thing misses, it can still ruin the neighborhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest PondScum Posted June 20, 2001 Share Posted June 20, 2001 I want to see the first post where someone says "my Sturmtiger fired at a target 1000m away, but it clipped the corner of a building 10m away and the resulting explosion took out three city blocks, two of my own platoons, and the Sturmtiger itself, BTS fix or do somefink!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PondScum: I want to see the first post where someone says "my Sturmtiger fired at a target 1000m away, but it clipped the corner of a building 10m away and the resulting explosion took out three city blocks, two of my own platoons, and the Sturmtiger itself, BTS fix or do somefink!".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Bah, that's why you have conscript volkssturm infantry to act as scouts. If the shot "clips" the building with these useless troops, then no problem. Back up, reload, and let the Allied player sigh a relief but let him also stress again a few turns later. Concentrating his infantry may be a disaster in the making... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaSCa Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 I suspect I will buy Sturmtigers about as often as I buy 14" arty spotters. Which is about never. I will not complain, however, should I find one under the tree in a canned scenario. Provided, of course, that I find it under MY tree. [ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: CaSCa ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warmaker Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 Yes, it has a horrendous... no, no, make that butt ugly reload time... the Sturmtiger can, with proper usage, single-handedly halt or break-up an infantry attack. Green/conscript troops are quite susceptible since they are not keen to blasts. 150mm and 128mm gun blasts give low-quality platoons the idea of reversing their compass heading, thinking "to hell with the company commander's orders." You just have to really babysit this fat, lazy cat much more than any AFV out there for CM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted June 21, 2001 Author Share Posted June 21, 2001 “Hey Sarge, what did the Lieutenant say?” “He wants us to move to that clump of trees over there.” “That’s 500 yards across open terrain! He mad at us or somethun? Whatta we sposed to do when we get there?” “His orders are to draw fire and keep that thing occupied while the Shermans get into position.” “Geeze Sarge, you seen the barrel on that sucker? It’s bigger than a deuce-and-a-half!” “Quit yer belly aching, Riley. Anderson!! I want you to keep that bazooka outa sight. Remember what happened last week when that Tiger spotted us 750 yards away?” “Yea, yea Sarge. Whadda hell am I supposed to do with?” “Stick it down yer pant leg, or sumpthing.” “Ain’t nuff room, Sarge.” “Use the other pant leg then!” “Why the hell does the Lieutenant want us over there? We can distract it just as well from here.” “Shut up Riley! Lieutenant says he wants the HQ outta the blast radius.” “Oh great!” “Sweet Jesus!” “Shut up you slobs. Now get the lead out!” “Redball two, this is Redball six, over.” “This is Redball two, over.” “You see it yet, over?” “Yea, there it is. Sitting there like a lizard on a rock, sunning itself.” “Redball three, this is six, over.” “This is Reball three, over.” “You gotta shot, over?” “Not a clear shot, over?” “Okay Redball, we’re going to form a quick wedge. When I give the order separate and hit its flanks. Do you roger, over?” “Roger, six.” “Roger, six.” “Redball, this is six. Anybody got hypershot, over?” “This is two. That’s a negative Redball six, over.” “This is Redball three. I’ve got one round, but Gunny says it’s his lucky charm and he ain’t gonna use it, over.” “What the hell! Tell that stupid SOB we ain’t fooling around here. He’s in deep **** and it’s up to his eyebrows! Redball, forward, over. Okay Wally, move us out.” “Watch it TC! That ugly sucker is pivoting. It’s turning this way. He’s seen us!!” “Redball, this is six! Split and hit its flanks. Move, move, move!!” “Oh ****, TC! It looks like its gonna fire! What the hell!! Oh my God!!!” “Sarge, did you see that? I can’t believe my eyes. It took out all three a them Shermans with one shot!” “Yea, I saw it Riley. The Lieutenant’s gonna be pissed. We didn’t distract it good enough. You see any survivors?” “Can’t tell. One Sherman just plain disappeared. One’s upside down and the other one is teetering back and forth on the crater’s edge. Don’t see anyone moving around there.” “Anderson, get the zook ready. Looks like it’s up to us.” “Are you nuts, Sarge. Didn’t you see what just happened? You think we gotta chance against that thing?” “Quit your whining, Riley. You always wanted to be a hero. Now’s yer chance. Anderson! What the hell are you doing?” “The damn thing is stuck in my drawers, Sarge. I can’t get it loose!” “You dumb ****, Anderson. Riley, give me one a those rockets. Anderson, I’m gonna load that sucker and pull the trigger.” “I got it, Sarge! Put that rocket down!” “Hey Sarge, look. The Krauts are bailing. What the…?” “Riley, what the hell! Why’d they do that? Okay men, move out, on the double!” “Well Lieutenant, I guess they ran out of fuel and just abandoned it. Anderson climbed in and checked it out. No ammo either, cept for a few MG rounds.” “That’s one ugly mother, Sergeant. Good work knocking it out. I’m gonna put you in for a medal.” “Ah shucks, Lieutenant. We didn’t do nuthin. The Krauts just quit.” “Yea, I know, but this will look good in Stars and Stripes. These things got the troops scared ****less. You did your country a great service.” “Whatever you say, Lieutenant. Anderson, what the hell you doing in there. Oh for Christ’s sake!” “Sarge, I’m stuck in the barrel. Help!” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commissar Posted June 21, 2001 Share Posted June 21, 2001 LOL, Snake Eyes! Now if someone was only to write a Russian version, since this is CM2 we're talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted June 21, 2001 Author Share Posted June 21, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar: Now if someone was only to write a Russian version, since this is CM2 we're talking about <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sorry, I don't speak Ruskie. Anyway this little drama was loosely based on fact. [ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: Snake Eyes ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawk Eye Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 I plan to use mine as a Mobile Taco Stand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blenheim Posted June 24, 2001 Share Posted June 24, 2001 I want one of this suckers.... Wooow. BOOOOOOOOOUMMMMMM!!!! No more ruskies. No more buildings in the town, as well... BTW, both "virtual AAR" were great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmchairKIA Posted June 24, 2001 Share Posted June 24, 2001 I prefer the Brumbaer, but I might take it for a spin in a large QB just so I can say "Wow, that blode up GOOD!". cheers! -gabe- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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