Bug: M4(105) vs. Panther round selection (really, with testcase and all)

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

If a Sherman 105 with HE, HC and smoke rounds faces a superior tank that it would not voluntarily shoot at and you order him to shoot at it with the target command, it will not fire HC rounds, but smoke rounds. When all smoke rounds are spent, it will use HC rounds.

Further bug indication: on the target command, it does not ask whether to use the main gun as it usually should do. It simply accepts the target command, but fires neither HE/HC main gun nor MG, but smoke.

If the opponent is not a Panther, but a Pz IV, it seems that the Sherman is sometimes willing to attack it and sometimes not, depending on facing and movement. While the Sherman is not willing, the same bug applies if you order him.

This may not be a bug but modeling of a particulary stubborn tank commander who wants to make his point about the futility of the attack order, of course...

Test case:

http://www2.cons.org:8000/tmp/sherman105.cmb

[edited, the server is down, copy is at

http://www3.cons.org/tmp/sherman105.cmb

Load as allies, do nothing in setup, wait a few turns to see that the Sherman does not shoot its main gun on the Panther. Then order the Sherman to shoot at the Panther. It will not ask whether to use the main gun or not. It will fire all smoke rounds, then start shooting HC rounds.

I have seen similar issues

- that the 105mm Sherman fires HE rounds where it should fire HC rounds

- that when giving target order to a group of units at once, some fire smoke. Probably when only some are cabale of firing smoke but the main selected one not.

But I cannot reproduce these in an isolated testcase for now. Maybe someone with a hint?

[ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]</p>

[Frenchy]

First, I belive the Sherman (105) is a ground support tank, designed to whack the pee-pees of the enemy troops. It was not designed to engage enemy tanks...the reason it fires smoke, I believe, is to cover its arse so it won't become a victim...

As for the glitches you mention, I know not the ways of the programmers...

As usual, I could be mistaken and if so, I apologize...just don't call me a schmuck like my wife does!

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[Guest ckoharik]

Schmuck!

Ok, now that the Pengism is out of the way I have to say I agree with you. An M4(105) would most definitely *not* want to try and go toe-to-toe with a Panzer (let alone a Panther or Tiger). Yes, they do have a 105mm and yes they have some HC rounds but the odds of them surviving the encounter would be small.

-Chris

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

It fires the smoke rounds directly at the enemy tank, exactly if it was trying to knock it out. The smoke shells then produce smoke behind the Panther on misses or directly above him when hit. Line of sight is broken in neither case.

It uses the right kind of ammunition after smoke is out, exactly in the same manner as it fired the smoke rounds before. This and the lack of the "use main gun?" question indicate that CMBO's weapon selection systems gets messed up when the target was unattractive before (and when a whole group of units gets target orders at once).

The HC rounds, if finally fired after no smoke rounds are left, knock out the Panther quite well. I came across it when investigating the problem in http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum7/HTML/000613.html, which is still a little different.

I assure you that this is not one of the "opinion bug reports" about historically that, gamey that and book X page Y. In fact, I am certain that some idiotic tank crews did this by accident in reality. The tank is literally trying to knock out a Panther with smoke shells. Maybe the Panther's crew will die from lung cancer sooner or later, but this doesn't seem to be an effective tactic.

[This message has been edited by Martin Cracauer (edited 03-26-2001).]

[Guest ckoharik]

OK, I see what the potential problem is. I cannot recall having seen this myself but I'll try to set something up for experimentation soon. Maybe someone else is already on it.

On a side note, I would consider myself extremely lucky to have had the time to disgorge all my smoke rounds and then still be able to fire an HC against a Panther without it making me into an Americanized Swiss cheese.

[Freak]

Just a question: what will the sherman 105 use its hollow charged shells for? If the 105 sherman was facing a Panther's side I would hope my sherman gets off a hc or even he, but please not smoke.

I wonder what would happen if a 105 was facing a panthers rear.

[Doug Williams]

In a recent game against the AI, a Panther presented it's side to my Sherman 105 at a range of about 400 meters. I ordered the Sherman to fire, which it did, achieving a hull penetration.

-Doug

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

Well, this bug wasn't here in 1.05 : I recall playing WBW Vossenack as the Germans, and my Panther was brewed up by a flank point blank shell from a Sherm105 !!

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

Originally posted by Freak:

Just a question: what will the sherman 105 use its hollow charged shells for? If the 105 sherman was facing a Panther's side I would hope my sherman gets off a hc or even he, but please not smoke.

I wonder what would happen if a 105 was facing a panthers rear.

From my testing, CMBO tanks will use HC rounds as few as possible, determined by useful parameters.

I tested against the Pz IV, where the Sherman 105 will voluntarily attack and the bug does not apply.

If you are facing the front of the PzIV, the Sherman will use a HC round. If you are facing other parts, it will use HE.

Best thing: if it faces several PzIV, it will not shoot HC at the nearest which has its front to him, but instead target one farther away where it can shoot at the side with HE.

In case it isn't obvious from the last statement, the selecting system in CMBO is very decent, IMHO. But is has a bug in that the ammunition selection system is messed up when the player manually upgrades an non-attractive target to a priority target.

Somehow the smoke rounds come out top in that situation, possibly caused by data structues that missed their initialization when the automatic targeting did not apply. If the appropriate round for a given target is not determined for each shot in each turn, but only once when the target is first spotted, then you will get this bug when the ammunition selection is skipped because the target is unattractive. If so, you will not reevaluate the right kind of ammunition when a manual target order comes and hence shoot random or default ammunition (shameless guess).

Side note: I briefly mentioned that I had cases where only HE was used. That is not a problem, I could reproduce the situation and it fits the scheme I just outlined. So forget about that comment. What I think has bugs seems to be only related to smoke.

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

Originally posted by Doug Williams:

In a recent game against the AI, a Panther presented it's side to my Sherman 105 at a range of about 400 meters. I ordered the Sherman to fire, which it did, achieving a hull penetration.

Yes, directly from the side. Please, folks, try my test scenario.

If the German tank is in a clearly vulnerable position, then the Sherman automatically targets it and all is well.

But if the German tank is in a superiour position, that means almost all positions for the Panther and only some for the PzIV, will the Sherman 105 not automatically target it and if you manually order it to fire it will fire smoke, and not out of self-preservation or hiding and yes, the HC round may very well penetrate the Panther from exactly that position, as you can see when no smoke rounds are left and the Sherman fires HC.

Try my test scenario, the bug applies in the default setup, where the Panther has its front to the Sherman and the bug applies. If you do a setup where you place the Sherman behind the Panther, all is normal.

[This message has been edited by Martin Cracauer (edited 03-26-2001).]

[Tiger]

"the bug applies in the default setup, where the Panther has its front to the Sherman and the bug applies."

the 105mm on the sherman is a low-velocity high-explosive gun for infantry support. It wouldn't bother firing at a panher's front because it's not going to penetrate. However the panthers high-velocity long 75mm is going to go through the sherman 105 like a hot knife through butter. Your 105mm sherman will fire at the sides and rear of a panther because there it does have a good chance to penetrate.

It's like you're a matador and you walk up to an angry bull and start slapping him in the face. Most sane people wouldn't try this.

The AI probably realizes this kind of situation as well and is going to start trying to lay smoke around the panther till you make a more rational decision other than "taunt the bull"

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 03-26-2001).]

[Vanir Ausf B]

Originally posted by Tiger:

It wouldn't bother firing at a panher's front because it's not going to penetrate.

Only problem is that this is not entirely true. The 105mm HEAT round can indeed penetrate the Panther frontally through either the turret or the lower hull, but not the upper hull.

Martin, I don't believe I have ever seen the game ask whether to use main gun or not when targeting a vehicle. It only asks that if you target infantry or area target.

I must say that this reinforced my notion that tank smoke rounds are worse than worthless. In my games I try to fire them off as soon as opportunity presents itself so the TacAI won't abuse them.

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What a bunch of horsecrap. -Steve

[This message has been edited by Vanir Ausf B (edited 03-26-2001).]

[Guy w/gun]

Guys, I think he's aware that the Sherman won't have much of a chance to penetrate. I have expirienced this problem too. The Sherman fires smoke at the Panther as if trying to hit it, not set up a smoke screen.

I also think it's noteworthy that you're giving a direct order, which to me atleast, should have a certain amount of priority over the TC natural tendencies (like the "because I said so" stuff your parents told you ). Your intentions of ordering him to fire may be out his scope for him to recognize.

[M Hofbauer]

"I must say that this reinforced my notion that tank smoke rounds are worse than worthless.

In my games I try to fire them off as soon as opportunity presents itself so the TacAI won't abuse them."

agree fully, same here as a SOP.

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"OK, I stand corrected, but that still doesn't sound effective as the Germans still did lose the war." (Maximus)

[Simon Fox]

The tank is literally trying to knock out a Panther with smoke shells.

Funnily enough this is a legitimate RL tactic, the tank crew think they are brewing up and bale out. Worked best with WP I believe.

If the Sherman was trying to screen himself I would think he would have popped smoke from the discharger (very effective I have found) rather than fire a round. So maybe somefink is going on?

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"Stand to your glasses steady,

This world is a world of lies,

Here's a toast to the dead already,

And here's to the next man to die."

-hymn of the "Double Reds"

[grunto2]

Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

"I must say that this reinforced my notion that tank smoke rounds are worse than worthless.

In my games I try to fire them off as soon as opportunity presents itself so the TacAI won't abuse them."

agree fully, same here as a SOP.

when designing scenarios, i've been known to go in and remove all of the smoke rounds from tanks, replacing them with he or c.

i never use smoke when i could be laying down HE instead. =laugh=

andy

[LimShady]

Originally posted by Simon Fox:

An account of this is in Belton Cooper's Death Traps about the ambush of a 3rd Armored Division column outside Paderborn. A tank crew knocked out two King Tigers with WP.

LimShady

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

Originally posted by Tiger:

the 105mm on the sherman is a low-velocity high-explosive gun for infantry support.

[...and is not going to engage it...]

It is the tank's good right not to attack by default. That is all fine and the mechanism work flawlessly.

However, I can take my chances and order it to fire and then the bug applies, it fires the wrong shell.

It wouldn't bother firing at a panher's front because it's not going to penetrate. However the panthers high-velocity long 75mm is going to go through the sherman 105 like a hot knife through butter. Your 105mm sherman will fire at the sides and rear of a panther because there it does have a good chance to penetrate.

It can make sense to order to fire, since the HC round of a Sherman105 can take out or damage the Panther from front. When the tank by itself decides the chances are too low, they are not zero.

Also, I may suspect that the Panther is shocked, has a damaged gun or I know that some mortar smoke round will protect my Sherman in a few seconds and then I may be even more likely to take the risk.

In any case, it obeys my order, whether it makes sense or not. But if it obeys, it should take the right kind of shell.

The AI probably realizes this kind of situation as well and is going to start trying to lay smoke around the panther till you make a more rational decision other than "taunt the bull"

Definitivly not. The smoke ends up behind or directly above the Panther, it does not break LOS.