Any luck with flamethrowers?

[Deathdealer]

I'm finishing one 2000 point defense which started with worst possible way. Attacking US got fighter-bomber in 4th round to area and started hunting my JPz70 - missing but my poor JPz reversed straight to LOS of Sherman/75 side open... pop and toast.

Anyway after some real hunting and fighting I have gotten rid of his Shermans (5 from beginning) and 2 M8s and I think 5 or 6 APCs... What got me smiling was last Sherman - it parked next to my flamethrower and woosh - at exactly 32m Sherman goes off.

One other cornerstone to my defence was 75bunker next to church which has one narrow LOS to next hill and being kinda down a valley has otherwise LOS only 150m. It got one Sherman, M8 and one APC - beside breaking two buildings filled with enemy.

Now we have 4 rounds to go and looks like his attack has been stopped.

[Panzer Leader]

One of the "bright spots" (heh heh, pun intended) of a recent PBEM in which I am being summarily slaughtered, was a FT team who got off FOUR!! shots at a couple squads and HQ within about ten meters before he finally bit the dust.

I think if I had had even a single squad to back him up, the outcome would have been very different. But even still, it was very satisfying to see my enemy flamed!

[kump]

Not much luck with flamethrowers at all. Okay on ambush/defense, but attack, just plain miserable.

Advancing slowly behind the main advance, they usually get caught in an artillery barrage meant for the front line. Little bursts of light indicated their fate. Poor miserable wretches!

Once they moved just as fast as the main attack force, only to find out later that they had emptied their fuel to keep up. The bastards!

On one night mission, it was discovered they had blown out their pilot lights to keep from being noticed on the advance. Then it was discovered that their wasn't a single match in the entire company! The morons!

Nope, the best use of them is to plant them with fuel in a hole somewhere and tell them to hide. If they are lucky, they will get a chance to spray something.

[Subvet]

I agree that it is very difficult to use the man portable flamethrowers on the attack. I have had my opponents use the vehicle mounted ones to great effect however. Especially that damn wasp! I played "ironchicken" today and he lit the town on fire with his wasp. I think he lit at least 6 buildings on fire that contained my troops. This breaks the troops and they are easy pickings after this. I nailed the wasp with a schreck, got a penetration, and it didn't even slow the wasp down. These things are nasty!

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Craiger

All your victory flag are belong to me

[ARCHANGEL]

Just the other day I had the AI fool me with an FT...I was advancing a US platoon into a village and designated one squad to enter a samll masonary building, as I looked elsewhere on the battlefield...all of a sudden the entire squad was running like hell...(no pun intended!). There was a lone German FT in that structure and he put that squad to flight...the next squad along took out the FT, but it cost me six of twelve men in the original squad and it deprived me of their services for three or four turns.

In another recent fight, an American FT stopped a German platoon advance all by himself, just by being at the right place to head them off...he was all I had available or close...(in a woodline)...and he did beautifully...One German squad high-tailed out of there and the remainder sat tight without advancing another yard...

Of course, these two succesess were out of hundreds of times when the FT was of no value what-so-ever to me in a fight...<g>

Results vary...

Archangel

[Warmaker]

Flamethrower units can be difficult & awkward at first but can be quite useful specialists. It's easy on the defense to set them up but on offense it's quite easy to use the vehicle mounted versions. Try putting flamethrower teams in a ride inside a halftrack/SPW to send them to "hotspots" more quickly. In particular they are quite useful for infantry that are pinned inside a Hvy.Building and sending in regular infantry to root them out will be too costly. FT teams are quite good on burning them out for your other units to rake them as they take flight.

I've had a Flammpanzer(Hetzer) singlehandedly win a 500pt game(with AI allies w/ +75% bonus points)for me. The key was originally a hulldown Panther G on a small hill but an extremely lucky Wolverine hit knocked the gun out. While the British were focusing their attention on the PantherG I sent my Flammpz. sprinting towards the objective(meeting engagement) and sought cover behind some tall woods and waited. Sure enough infantry started showing up to secure the objective and had the FlammPz. button up and go to work. Held off roughly a company sized by itself. Clumps of infantry were summarily dealt with by a few good bursts of fire and they were sent running. By the end the woods surrounding the objective and my FlammPz. were on fire, smoke billowing everywhere. Quite satisfying, trying to remember where that screenshot went to. Also of special note is the remote controlled MG on the Hetzer series since it saved my @$$ alot in this QB. While the FT was focused elsewhere the MG could be rotated anywhere to deal with assaulting infantry from the flanks/rear while buttoned up. PIAT teams didn't stick around long enough when the woods were on fire.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[mike8g]

Being the one "flamed" in the PBEM mentioned by Panzer Leader, I had a closer look at the described "fire"-fight:

PL's flamethrower fired four shots at my troops which consisted of three squads and one HQ. No physical damage was done to my units, no losses were suffered.

Actually, shot one and two shocked/ panicked two squads, shot three set the wood tile on fire, while shocking one more squad. Shot four had no effect at all. Due to presence of a HQ all squads could be rallied in very short time.

Regarding to the topic of this thread:

"Any luck against flamethrowers ?"

Marcus

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Alle Maschinen voraus Große, Ruder hart Backbord. Neuer Kurs wird Zwo-Eins-Null.

[This message has been edited by mike8g (edited 03-25-2001).]

[Guest aaronb]

My latest 'flamer' acted drunk. Very drunk.

In a PBEM (computer pick) with Pillar, a flamethrower unit hiding in a small house (intended to break-up any frontal rushes, helped by a minefield to the left):

- waited until an enemy squad was _in_ the house with it, then fired, forcing the squad out (1 casualty) and lighting-off the house, thus forcing himself into the open as well.

- next turn, no problem (I think), he's now right next to a large heavy house (5 metres or so), the opposition is face-down in the dirt, so he'll move to safety, spraying along the way.

- hah. The unit turns, fires, misses, takes return fire from an enemy platoon leader... then runs towards said platoon leader into my own minefield!!! I don't know if the mines got him, or enemy fire. Disgusting.

Needless to say, I got creamed (there were other issues, but the FT sure didn't help).

My best luck with FT's has been vehicle mounted, creating ad-hoc smoke screens and generally denying the enemy certain lanes of advance.

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my armoured assets have about the half-life of a gnat in DDT

- Germanboy

[Wolfpack]

Best result out of a flamethrower team I've ever seen came in one of the campaign games I was in. Advancing a full company through a large section of woods, I had been driving some Germans in front of me until my forces ran into this guy. He faced down my entire company routing two full platoons and setting at least 4 woods tiles on fire before my lead platoon was finally able to take him out. Then I was counterattacked by the German infantry and had to hold out with the one platoon that wasn't broken. Needless to say I was a bit irked by the valient flamethrower.

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Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

[Juju]

Originally posted by mike8g:

Regarding to the topic of this thread:

"Any luck against flamethrowers ?"

I have found the best defense against flamethrowers (thanks Moosehead) is to have your men pee in their cover. Works great!

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If your enemy comes to speak bearing a sword, open your door to him and speak, but keep your own sword at hand.

If he comes to you empty-handed, greet him the same way.

But if he comes to you bearing gifts, stand on your walls and cast stones down on him.

[moosehead]

Originally posted by Juju:

I have found the best defense against flamethrowers (thanks Moosehead) is to have your men pee in their cover. Works great!

Ya, those guys were beer chuggin, just before the battle. Prob gave them a morale boost also!

[Dogface]

hehe ya i thought i had moose head cowering behind a hill ran a smg squad to the front , flanked w/ some volkstrum but his two flame throwers beat back the attack...

[Roborat]

I actually managed to get a flamethrower to fire before he got killed or the game ended...once..., only once.

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"With cat-like tread, Upon our prey we steal;

In silence dread, Our cautious way we feel." -G&S

[JunoReactor]

I attacked a Brit rifle platoon with a pioneer platoon of mine in heavy woods one time. The pioneer's had 3 FTs with them.

Man, did they toast (eerm.. enough with these puns already) the Brits. By the time slaughter had ended my FT teams had set alight the whole Brit side of the forest. Those who weren't charred ran away to open ground where a platoon of PzIV's greeted them.

After the battle, which lasted no more than 4 minutes, it turned out that the Brits had TWO rifle platoons. Heh.

[Soddball]

I got to use the sherman croc in the 'west wall' mission. German troops burn GOOD!

(Only, successful use of flamethrower - normally my idea of a good time does not involve driving around in a cardboard box filled with flammable liquid. I'll just hide in this ditch till it goes pop.)

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"Woof!Woof!"

That's my other dog impression.

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

I was loosing so many FT teams that I started playing FT-only games to train it (ok, that means FT + infantry + APC).

If you have problems with FTs not firing when they should, check friendly units. I found that they need nearly 180 degrees free in front of them, otherwise they won't shoot.

Note the differences between the British and U.S. flamethrowers. As far as my books go, there is some mismodeling here regading range and ammo and as it is in CMBO, the British ones are better.

FT teams on the attack require an APC. My special firend here is the RAM kangaroo, because it is very thick and it is so fast that most tanks and guns can't follow it. For the Germans, the 250/1 is fast enough as well, but the .50cal can be a problem. If the halftracks gets knocked out by an MG, the team usually survives, though. Drive the APC to be back side of a house. It is sad that vehicles don't give cover in CMBO, otherwise more delicate tactics could be developed.

Flamethrower vehicles: check out the Canadian badger if you havn't already.

Another modeling improvement would be the Canadian version of the wasp, according to Bishop's book. It had its FT fuel tank mounted on the back and had an MG and team transport capacity, but was more vulnerable from behind.

Question: do you consider burning unoccupied buildings out of combat to deny later enemy entry to it inappropriate tactics?

[John Kettler]

Flamethrowers are much easier to use when defending than when attacking. One team I set in ambush just inside a wood roasted an unbuttoned H-39. Another time I had a cut up flamethrower team which put the wind up several German squads before succumbing to a hail of fire.

It is possible to use them offensively, but I've so far only had success with them where

heavy cover was present. For example, in one of my battles against Kingfish I was able to slip the team into position through a forest, then crawl into firing position before opening fire. The results were worth the long slog to get there. Of course, the team that was on a more exposed axis died without being able to fire a single burst.

My only other use of flamethrowers so far was another game against Kingfish in which I had a pair of 251/16 flamethrower halftracks attacking into a town as part of a pinning attack. Please search under my name for a thread in which I detail the huge disconnect between the CM version of this vehicle and the real one. The game version is sorely deficient. Had I known this going in, I would've handled the vehicles far more conservatively than I did. I thought I could engage several targets at once. Wrong!

On the offense, especially in grassland, you need lots of suppressive fire and smoke. The best flamethrower target is a pinned or worse unit. You've got the best survival odds and best outcome for effort expended.

Hope this helps.

John Kettler

[Soddball]

To Martin's question about burning buildings so the enemy can't use them:

I don't think there's anything wrong with that tactic. It sounds like a means to protect yourself and whilst some might wave the 'gamey' flag I would be quite happy to do it. It seems like a perfectly sensible reaction to a potential threat and 'scorched earth' tactics have been used for centuries.

Affording a FT tank to give me enough uses to burn lots of stuff is a different matter, though

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"Woof!Woof!"

That's my other dog impression.

[Warmaker]

With this thread's inspiration, I have laid supposedly unoccupied buildings to fire to deny enemy use of such cover. I've experimented with this on more of a defensive setting where you know you will be falling back due to a suspected superior enemy. In the attacker's objective area, set those hvy.buildings, woods, anything that can be used for cover on fire. This is my version of the "scorched earth" policy. Just seems so appropriate for my German troops to be doing this, ala Ostfront. Anyhow, this negates the attacker's benefit of using them for cover while securing his objectives. If you're as devious as me, set several TRP's in the objective area and position your supporting weapons(ATGs/HMGs/Inf.Guns/Armor/etc.) so that they can somehow cover various areas of the enemy's objective. If you've got Hvy.Arty spotters position them further back also. Let the enemy take the objective but harass them as they do so while falling back. As the enemy secures the objective, and if you've timed it right have Arty. rain down upon them and commence the slaughter with your supporting arms. Without cover infantry will suffer tremendously (soften them up alot should you decide to mount a counterattack to retake the objective. Infantry are a real pain to remove if they're positioned right). The allies with their VT fuses can be quite effective with this. Also, it will button up any armor and destroy hopefully a good chunk of Halftracks/SPWs. If they break out of the objective to attack your positions, hopefully it will be playing more into your favor/killzones.

Just a sudden inspiration. Creativity isn't only for pansy little painters gentlemen!

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[Gyrene]

"Question: do you consider burning unoccupied buildings out of combat to deny later enemy entry to it inappropriate tactics?"

I guess a similar question would be to demolish a building that is blocking your LOS or one which is a possible refuge for fleeing opponents...All's fair in love and war, they say, after all the Allies bombed the crap out of St. Benedict's monastery in Cassino because they thought the Germans were posting Artillery spotters there.

[lucero1148]

I've had moderate success with FT's on offense in "These Hills Are Alive". My first team in a mop up of the German's front line burned out a bunker after I had swept away the defending platoons in that area. The idiot however shot his whole load of fuel into the bunker before it surrendered. My second team moving in support of assaulting troops on a defended hill with a pillbox, bunker and barbed wire panicked the defending infanty behind the barbed wire and made life easier for the assult troops as they eliminated the defenders quickly after that. On moving forward the FT then took out the pillbox and ran out of fuel.

This is one of the toughest battles I've ever seen and the US attacker although looks powerful point wise against the Germans is at the disadvantage because on board mortars are useless and for the most part all his armor will never come into play. FT's are quite useful but much care is needed in their use. Tactics and bringing what firepower you have available to bear on the Germans is the only way to win. My opponent surrendered.

[Guest Rex_Bellator]

My current wallpaper is a Churchill Croc with 10 Panzer IV kills and 43 confirmed infantry kills, probably double that in unconfirmed kills.

It's the mother of all flamers with huge range, endless napalm and enough gun or MG options and armour to handle any situation. It won the battle virtually single handed and the map looked like something out of Dante's Inferno. If you want to use flamethrowers on the attack then this is the beast.

I guess the reason it (and other types) were invented was because men carrying flamers in RL were found to be too vulnerable in the assault, so we can't fault CM's authenticity

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In blossom today

then scattered,

life is so like a delicate flower,

how can one expect the fragrance

to last forever

Vice Admiral Takijiro Ohnishi - Commander Kamikaze Special Attack Force

[Guest ckoharik]

Originally posted by Rex_Bellator:

I guess the reason it (and other types) were invented was because men carrying flamers in RL were found to be too vulnerable in the assault, so we can't fault CM's authenticity

Sounds right to me. Heard some stories from my friend's father who was a landing craft driver in the Pacific. After seeing Saving Private Ryan he remarked about how the scene with the flamethrower going up reminded him all too much of his time in WW2. He did say that in his experience the normal line troops made sure to give the FT a wide berth.

To keep this even marginally on topic here is my person opinion on FTs in the game.

When attacking, I try to transport the FTs so as they do not lag too far behind the main force and use them only when I can get them into firing position with support. Rarely do I try to utilize them in a flowing, mobil battle.

On the defense I find them very useful for denying areas with cover useful to my opponent. In a wooded area with a team for quick support they can make a very effective ambush.

-Chris

[This message has been edited by ckoharik (edited 03-26-2001).]

[Stefan Fredriksson]

Using FT to light up houses certainly can not be cosidered "gamey".

Would you think twice before lighting up a house full of enemies?

FT are good when they work. In recent pbem one of my Pumas were lit up in seconds by a US FT-team. On the other hand, in another game, a German FT emptied their whole tank on top of one of my Churchills, with no result at all, Except for some burnt painting. (That the Churchill turned its butt toward an 88 is a different story...argh!).

But my all-time favorite must be the Wasp. Quick as a weasle it zooms from house to house, lighting up the whole town like a Christmas tree. Gotta love the little buggers

[Warmaker]

Just want to re-emphasize along with you guys the use of any transport to bring up your man held FT's. Don't keep these in the frontlines on the offensive but keep them just behind to help deal with hardpoints/"hotspots." I tend to favor FT tanks/HT's more than infantry ones due to mobility. But then again, an ambushing FT team hiding in the woods alongside a road can be a nightmare to any passing by tank. Also, infantry FT teams are much cheaper.

Oh, and if you want a decoy, albeit expensive decoys, FT teams are the ticket!

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[This message has been edited by Warmaker (edited 03-26-2001).]