Hit %: When to Fire that AT-gun?

[WineCape]

The following Scenario in PBEM:

I have a veteran 105mm RCL, hiding in patch of scattered trees waiting in ambush, me getting all juiced up as 2 unsuspecting M4 Sherman (with full squads on both of the Shermans) are moving in LOS (range: +/-700m) of the above guns.

Problem:

The 105mm RCL is hiding, BUT are facing 30-45 Deg. AWAY from the approaching Shermans.

Question 1:

Could it be possible that the 2 Shermans (unbuttoned) will pick the 105mm RCL up (for the few seconds anyway) if I order the gun to "re-rotate" + "Hide", thus pointing in the Shermans general direction, awaiting a better oppurtunity to fire in the near future? [Note: This is my last AT-assest. If they go, bye-bye PBEM game!)

Question 2:

At what hit % would it be *Reasonable safe* (given that there IS no securities ) to fire the 105mm as I have the following LOS info on the 2 unsuspecting M4's:

(i) On Sherman 1 = Hit:29%, Kill:OK

(ii) On Sherman 2 = Hit:8%, Kill:Good, "Hull Down"

Now obviously (ii) will not induce me to use the 105mm, unless I'm into S&M!

But the Hit % of 29% makes it tempting to open up and fire - but wouldn't it be more prudent to rather wait for a Hit % of 50 or higher on both targets to get a reasonable chance of knocking both out?

Or should I order "ambush" - will the 105mm "automatically" then wait for a higher % kill before it fires?

Remember, both Sherman are a few metres apart (at an oblique angle to the 105mm RCL) thus they can retaliate (both) very quickly on the RCL if the 105mm opens up - which will be a dead give away on my hidden position anyway

What is the ROF of the 105mm RCL? Another dynamic here that could prevent me from taking both Shermans on (if hit % more favourable).

Any comments regarding Hit %, when to fire your AT-gun (or ambushing the Shermans rather) will be appreciated.

Kind Regards

Charl Theron

[Olle Petersson]

Regarding your 1st question:

- It will be pretty harmless to change facing and then go to hiding.

Regarding the 2nd Q:

- I usually use range rather than percentage to decide wether to open fire or not.

For the 105mm RR I'd try to wait until range is about 400m or less, to get a hit fast.

Depending on what the opposition does, it might be beneficial and possible to rotate and hide in the next command phase, and then set an Ambush point in front of the closest tank in the following command phase.

Cheers

Olle

[Do_A_Search]

I agree with Olle. I'd rotate hide and set and ambush point. Dont fire to soon or you'll never get both.

[M. Bates]

Originally posted by WineCape:

The following Scenario in PBEM:

I have a veteran 105mm RCL, hiding in patch of scattered trees waiting in ambush, me getting all juiced up as 2 unsuspecting M4 Sherman (with full squads on both of the Shermans) are moving in LOS (range: +/-700m) of the above guns.

Problem:

The 105mm RCL is hiding, BUT are facing 30-45 Deg. AWAY from the approaching Shermans.

Question 1:

Could it be possible that the 2 Shermans (unbuttoned) will pick the 105mm RCL up (for the few seconds anyway) if I order the gun to "re-rotate" + "Hide", thus pointing in the Shermans general direction, awaiting a better oppurtunity to fire in the near future? [Note: This is my last AT-assest. If they go, bye-bye PBEM game!)

Question 2:

At what hit % would it be *Reasonable safe* (given that there IS no securities ) to fire the 105mm as I have the following LOS info on the 2 unsuspecting M4's:

(i) On Sherman 1 = Hit:29%, Kill:OK

(ii) On Sherman 2 = Hit:8%, Kill:Good, "Hull Down"

Now obviously (ii) will not induce me to use the 105mm, unless I'm into S&M!

But the Hit % of 29% makes it tempting to open up and fire - but wouldn't it be more prudent to rather wait for a Hit % of 50 or higher on both targets to get a reasonable chance of knocking both out?

Or should I order "ambush" - will the 105mm "automatically" then wait for a higher % kill before it fires?

Remember, both Sherman are a few metres apart (at an oblique angle to the 105mm RCL) thus they can retaliate (both) very quickly on the RCL if the 105mm opens up - which will be a dead give away on my hidden position anyway

What is the ROF of the 105mm RCL? Another dynamic here that could prevent me from taking both Shermans on (if hit % more favourable).

Any comments regarding Hit %, when to fire your AT-gun (or ambushing the Shermans rather) will be appreciated.

Kind Regards

Charl Theron

Winecape, I suggest the following: have your RCL at the Shermans straight away.

REMEMBER it will take a couple of seconds for your RCL to turn and fire, so... IS it possible for you to distract the Shermans with another unit like a rifle squad for instance, or machine gun?

This has two advantages:

(1) The infantry on the back of the enemy Shermans will panic and bail ship.

(2) The Shermans will be distracted by the other threat, and so your RCL has a chance of knocking out perhaps both tanks.

[JoePrivate]

1 - It's perfectly safe to rotate and hide the 105 RCL without it being spotted.

2 - Tougher question, is there a possibility the Shermans will have to move closer than they are at present? Or is this it? Something to keep in mind, the 105 RCL is woefully inaccurate at long range, check out its velocity, and slow firing to boot, so if you open up now(29%) you are definitely looking to luck for a hit! If the situation warrants it I would be looking at a much closer range before opening up.

[WineCape]

Mr Bates,

Would you fire your 105mm RCL with Hit:29%and a kill probability of "OK" @ a range of 700m? Or would you wait for a higher percentage, or even ambush?

This is the question more endearing to my heart.

Olle has indicated above he rather uses *range* (say 400m) before he would give the "Fire" command, but that is the other side of the coin, as at a range of 400m I assume the Hit % and Kill probability will obviously be higher anyway than the current hit:29% @ a range of 700m.

Distracting the Shermans is obviouisly a good idea, as they are nearly broadside to the hidden 105mm RCl anyway.

regards

Charl Theron

[WineCape]

Originally posted by JoePrivate:

1 - It's perfectly safe to rotate and hide the 105 RCL without it being spotted.

2 - Tougher question, is there a possibility the Shermans will have to move closer than they are at present? Or is this it? Something to keep in mind, the 105 RCL is woefully inaccurate at long range, check out its velocity, and slow firing to boot, so if you open up now(29%) you are definitely looking to luck for a hit! If the situation warrants it I would be looking at a much closer range before opening up.

OK, so slow ROF + slow velocity p/meter of its firing projectile (which equates to not so good accuracy over a longer distance - 700m) of the 105mm RCL will "demand" NOT FIRING.

Mmmm, my thoughts @ the moment exactly.

[WineCape]

There is also little chance that the 2 Shermans will move much closer, as the are nearing a hill - my opponent will obviously not be stupid enough to crest the hill and race downhill without scanning 80% of the battlefield thouroughly!

Kind regards

Charl Theron

[Hawkmek]

So. . . . .

Don't leave us hanging. Let us know the outcome. I am getting that edge-o-my-seat feeling about your 105s' situation.

I often wonder about those percentages too, but I usually take the shot thinking I may never get another chance.

Good luck

[Pvt.Tom]

Something else to think about, all RR in CM are a lot harder to spot when firing that in real life, (I think the backblast is not modeled corectly.) I used to play someone who used them a lot and they would get off a lot of shots before I could spot them, so unless he has infantry around you will probably be able to get a couple of shots off before he can respond.

[M. Bates]

WineCape, fire anyway. You may not get another chance. If you hit one Sherman, will it block the other? Worth thinking about. Chuck as much lead at the blighters as you can, and count your casaulties later.

[FriendlyFire]

You haven't said how far back in the scattered trees you are - this will affect your visibility when you fire. If you're only 5m in from the edge, forget it, you'll probably be seen immediately. If you're 80m in (or whatever the distance is where you can just see out), you stand a much better chance of getting off shots without being seen.

Also, are those two tanks the only enemy units in view of that RCL? If so, you have a better chance of getting away with it - even after a turn of firing, you might still not show up on your opponent's map, especially if they're buttoned (have you got anything that can button them up? Maybe a turn of 81mm mortar fire?). BUt if he's got a platoon or two of infantry on the ridge, you'll be seen faster.

[Michael Dorosh]

Why obsess about two tanks that are 700 metres away? What is your objective in this scenario? Are you attacking or defending? Sounds like you're defending. Don't fixate on two tanks and convince yourself that with them on the board you can't win. That's not necessarily the case. What are the rest of the forces on the board doing? Are you in open terrain, or close?

The theme of fixating on armor has been discussed before; the game will hinge on how you manage all your forces, not just what happens to one or two tanks.

[MrWinterbottom]

Please tell us the outcome. I am sitting on the edge of my seat waiting.

Mr.Winterbottom

[Mark IV]

Depending on the rest of the terrain and situation, I might unhide, and let the Veteran gunner (meaning TacAI) choose. 700m is a long way. If the unit started Hidden, I think it will stay hidden at those ranges until it fires.

A 1 in 3.5 hit chance, with a near 100% chance of giving away your position by the 2nd shot, seems like poor odds. If they are approaching and the squads are riding, it's likely they'll stay on another turn, rather than walk 700m in the open, and it's likely that the Shermans will close the distance to something your Vet gunner feels comfortable with. Very juicy. I wouldn't do it with a Reg.

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Why obsess about two tanks that are 700 metres away?...Don't fixate on two tanks and convince yourself that with them on the board you can't win... The theme of fixating on armor has been discussed before; the game will hinge on how you manage all your forces, not just what happens to one or two tanks.

I don't think posting the question is an indication of obsession or fixation. He did say this is his last AT asset. Shermans are hard on enemy infantry when they are unopposed, eh?

And they ARE tanks, and this IS an antitank gun, and they ARE heading his way with infantry passengers to boot... so I think toying with the notion of shooting them is a legitimate pursuit.

[Schugger]

WineCap, I haven't used the AT device you described but 700m sounds like quite a large distance.

Have you thought about using the editor to recreate the situation?

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by Mark IV:

I don't think posting the question is an indication of obsession or fixation.

Oh I agree, and this forum is exactly what questions like that are for. He is asking in very specific terms what to do in one instance without implying that it is the only course of action he wants to take. Sorry for the misconception; I wanted to raise the issue of fixation without making it look like that is what is going on here. Winecape mentions that if he doesn't nail these Shermans it is buhbye PBEM, which may not necessarily be the case.

[Pvt.Tom]

I think fixation on armor is a big problem that a lot of people have, (myself included) so a little reminder is always good IMHO, thank you Michael

[Pak40]

Button up those tanks with anything that you've got. It will take them longer to spot your RCL.

I would wait to fire untill the tanks are closer, about 200 meters. But if he has infantry in front of the tanks then you'll need infantry in front of your RCL.

[WineCape]

M. Bates:

WineCape, fire anyway. You may not get another chance. Chuck as much lead at the blighters as you can, and count your casaulties later.

Seems good advise, I have Sherman #1 now @ 675m in sight of my 105mm RCL at Hit:34% and Kill:OK - 75mm Arty has been ordered a turn ago to plaster the general area (ETA still 2 min away), so I guess that trying to buttoning up the 2 metal beasts seems not an option at the moment.

Therefor, given that the above unsuspecting Shermans are now *motionless* and dis-embarking their squads, plus the Hit:34% on Sherman #1 (Sherman #2 Hit:29%, Kill:OK, 28m away and slightly backwards from Sherman #1) of my 105mm LOS possibly not going to improve any further, I have ordered the FIRE command for the next turn.

[inf. of both forces to far away to get into an effective firefight.]

FriendlyFire:

You haven't said how far back in the scattered trees you are - this will affect your visibility when you fire. Also, are those two tanks the only enemy units in view of that RCL? If so, you have a better chance of getting away with it - even after a turn of firing, you might still not show up on your opponent's map...

FriendlyFire, I am 13m into scattered trees in summer time. According to inf. exposure tables d/l from CMHQ, that gives me a +/- 29% exposure once I open up and fire. Mr. Bates' advise seems logical - fire the damn 105mm RCL and count casualties later

The 2 Shermans (with their squads dis-embarking) is the only units (as far as I can see) that have a possible LOS onto my 105mm.

Michael Dorosch:

Why obsess about two tanks that are 700 metres away?

As stated, this is the last of my AT-gun assests. Battle nearing its end, my last AFV blown to bits by these damn 2 metal beasts and whats more... I need (some) revenge, otherwise my inf. is going to be pounded over an open field of 650m-700m -- seems not an scenario likely to wrap up this PBEM game, unless I am a Russian Field commander

So I suppose, *FIXATION* ( )at the moment it is and should be! All are riding on my veteran 105mm RCL's Hit:% probability -- ideally waiting for a higher Hit:%, say 50%+, NOT going to happen.

So *FIRE* command it will be for my veteran 105mm RCL...

That Hit:34% is going to be crucial...

I'll let you gentleman know what transpired during the next action phase.

regards

Charl Theron

[catnip]

I am betting that if you can't button them up, you'll miss and end up with a dead RCL in the trees. I once played a PBEM where my greyhound was being attacked at about 500m by a RCL in trees (not sure what experience level RCL though) and the greyhound killed him without even moving.

[Porajkl]

Good luck! But I think I can predict the outcome: 2 happy Shermans and one knocked out 105mm gun. Your gun will fire 2 shots, both will miss and before fireing the third one will be destroyed by two Shermans' guns.

I had similar situation with me having Pupschen, desperate firing against Sherman some 450 meters away (I know I should wait for closer range, but it wouldn't occure because I'd loose him out of sight next turn. And my infantry badly needed him die). Needless to say who dominates battlefield now. Those recoilles guns are just so inaccurate. And so the Sherman adds another victim to hiss kills...

[FriendlyFire]

Yeah, at 700m you really want a "proper" AT gun, like my uber-Pak50 shown here http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/018016.html

But now that WineCape has committed his RCL, let's see the outcome! Hey, you never know, those Shermans are stationary...

[WineCape]

Gentleman,

Thanks for the vote of confidence, now that I have commited my 105mm RCL!

Which brings me to another point. Do you gentleman prefer a 50mm AT-gun or a 105mm RCL if you have the choice? They are very similiary priced in point value.

Hopefully I can buck the trend and knock-out at least one stationery M4 Sherman with the RCL....

Just waiting for my opponent to send the return file.

Kind regards

Charl Theron

[FriendlyFire]

It's a trade-off between the accuracy-at-range of the Pak50 and the big warhead of the RCL, so the choice depends on what I'm expecting to face and where. If I'm expecting Shermans and light armor at 750m on a nice open map, I'd take the Pak50. If I'm expecting Churchills and Jumbos in a more constrained map where I might first see them at 300m, I'd take the RCL.