Motorcycles-CM 2

[Goober]

Does anyone know whether motorcycle platoons will be incorporated in CM2. Would be a real shame to leave these out along with horse drawn artillary and other units depending on horses. What does everyone think?

[Guest Babra]

No horses. Sidecar combinations would be nice, though.

[Juju]

Beautiful sig, Babra!

[lcm1947]

I personally wouldn't care for them but hey that's my opinion. Not to downplay your idea but let me explain why I wouldn't care to see them. Just like the horse idea how much would it really add to the game? What I mean is I for one play the game to shoot and kill the enemy, well I should say to win the game not just kill but to me that's the same thing. I therefore buy only equipment/ units to carry this out. So I wouldn't want to spend any money on something that worthless just like I wouldn't ever (again ) buy the machine gun mounted jeep. They aren't worth it. I want equipment/units that will enable me to win. I hate people that shoot down my ideas so was reluctant to make this post but after reading a remark by Steve the other day I feel compelled to do so. Oh, the remark by Steve was that he felt that debating a topic was good. It's actually welcomed as it improves the game to argue a point or idea. Now he did also say that one should do it nicely and not have to be rude. I now have a different opinion on responding to a post when I don't agree with it so hope this doesn't make you mad or feel bad it's just my opinion. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

[Guest Babra]

It's true motorcycles would have a limited usefulness â la survivability and usefulness, but the reasons I would like to see them include 1) immersion - helps give a feel for the era; 2) recce - light recce units can be useful if short-lived; 3) I'm a motorcycle slut - err, afficianado - and vintage bikes turn my crank. My only hope is that, if included, they don't "bail out" as quickly as jeeps.

And they shouldn't REVERSE MOVE

Horses. Even though I completely agree with BTS' reasoning for not including them, I am still a bit disappointed. On the other hand, I wouldn't like shooting at horses, even virtual ones, so the surest way to beat me would be to buy lots of 'em

[Slapdragon]

I kind of think (just mho) that BTS would have included them if the engine had the ability to handle them easier. Maybe in th enext go around.

Afterall, I first played SL in 1979, but it was 1990 before the game was to the point that Greenwood was "happy" with it. OIf course, it fell flat because of the limitation of board games, but it was the best company level WW2 simulation until CM.

[olandt]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Babra:

Horses. Even though I completely agree with BTS' reasoning for not including them, I am still a bit disappointed. On the other hand, I wouldn't like shooting at horses, even virtual ones, so the surest way to beat me would be to buy lots of 'em <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't mind shooting virtual soldiers, but you do mind shooting virtual horses?

I am disappointed but the lack of calvary as well. That kind of infantry mobility through most terrain would have added to the game.

[blindseye]

Wow, spookey, I posted a similar thread the same time that olandt bumped this one up at 9:19!

I, for one, would like to see motorcycles and horses in CM2, but I can understand how that would be a major rewrite and not make it into CMBB.

[Guest Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by olandt:

I am disappointed but the lack of calvary as well...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You silly, silly Gentile. "Calvary" aka "Golgotha" is a hill in Jerusalem. Some feller got nailed up there once.

"Cavalry" is other fellers on horses, and horses are superior creatures to men (but then, so are cockroaches really), and I don't like to shoot at them.

[rvalle]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Babra:

It's true motorcycles would have a limited usefulness â la survivability and usefulness, but the reasons I would like to see them include 1) immersion - helps give a feel for the era; 2) recce - light recce units can be useful if short-lived; 3) I'm a motorcycle slut - err, afficianado - and vintage bikes turn my crank. My only hope is that, if included, they don't "bail out" as quickly as jeeps.

And they shouldn't REVERSE MOVE

Horses. Even though I completely agree with BTS' reasoning for not including them, I am still a bit disappointed. On the other hand, I wouldn't like shooting at horses, even virtual ones, so the surest way to beat me would be to buy lots of 'em <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But would they be in the scope of the battle? I would think that they use the bikes to ride TOO the battle, then move on foot IN the battle. I can't see the troops riding around the battle field on bikes! (though it would make for some new movement types: Ride, Ride Fast...)

rv

[Guest Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rvalle:

...though it would make for some new movement types: Ride, Ride Fast...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...Live to ride, ride like the devil...

[rvalle]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Babra:

...Live to ride, ride like the devil... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL

Do wheelies, overrun attacks. Engineers can now make ramps for the mote cycles to use to jump over minefields.

rv

[Andrew H.]

I'd be interested in seeing how many Soviet tanks Hauptmann Kneivel can jump with his BMW motorcycle.

[Louie the Toad]

Motorcycles

Didn't you just love 'em in Steel Panthers!

Great for recon. Great for beating the enemy to a position. Good for disrupting troop transports. Good for raiding enemy positions from the rear.

Some of these attributes would work well in CM. Also what about transporting that FO or HQ to a new position fast.

Hog Wild Toad

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rvalle:

But would they be in the scope of the battle? I would think that they use the bikes to ride TOO the battle, then move on foot IN the battle. I can't see the troops riding around the battle field on bikes! (though it would make for some new movement types: Ride, Ride Fast...)

rv<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was reading a book about the hill that got surrounded by the attack at Mortain. The arty spotter mentioned he kept calling in artillery on columns of krauts on bikes trying to move up the road. He thought it was rather funny to see them on a modern battlefield.

[Goober]

It is a fair comment to say that both horses and motorcycles would have fairly limited usefullness but hey so do trucks that are provided in CM as well. Both have important roles that are true historically. Cycles for recon and horses for deployment of artilliary(and spotters)and recon platoons. Everyone thinks of the Germans as being heavily mechanised during the early course of the war which is very far from the truth. Both the soviets and germans relied heavily on horses to transport equipment and supplies.

With all the mods being developed on various sites how hard would it be to come up with these two units.

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goober:

With all the mods being developed on various sites how hard would it be to come up with these two units.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pretty hard, actually. BTS only allowed for customers to mod .bmp and .wav files. Can't add new units or change the performance or behavior of any of the current units. Meaning someone could probably knock together a mod that mad a truck look like a bike, but a truck with any other skin still smells as sweet, or something.

[Maj. Battaglia]

I made a post to the other motorcycle thread just as this one got bumped. To summarize, motorcycle units were not as common as propaganda photos might lead one to believe. Basically, a few types of divisions may have had a company in their recon battalion, while Corps and Army HQs could have had an independent motorcycle battalion.

For Blitzkrieg scenarios, e.g. Russia, motorcycle units could be found although fairly rare. They should not be in CMBO in my opinion.

The Germans relied much more on bicycles for infantry recon mobility, with cavalry early in the war as well. They also used bicycle battalions for general infantry mobility (panzerwerfer42 also points this out), although they'd be dismounted pretty quickly and I can't see a use in the CM scale for them (or horses, despite their common use).

That being said, it might be interesting to include them in meeting engagements, ambushes, etc. Small recon-type scenarios can be very interesting. Motorcycles should not be considered common near the front line.

Just some thoughts.

[Chad Harrison]

motorcycles (or even the british bycicles) would be a nice little tid bit of realism, but would they add that much to the game? i also played ASL when i was younger and the bikes were sure fun to use against the polish for fast recon and small strike units. yes they would add that level to CMBB, but is it worth all the work? if BTS ever has a quiet night, and an itch to code something new into CMBB, maybe bikes will wedge their way into the game!

[Andrew H.]

Motorcycles (like bicycles and trucks and horses and mules and elephants) do make a certain amount of sense for rear area transport. They don't make a lot of sense for CM, though, as CM deals primarily with the front line areas. Trucks have to be in CM, though, because as silly as it seem to have unarmored trucks in front line areas, they were, in fact, often used to move guns around and stuff.

And while people today (and even in the '40's) tend to think of troops on bicycles as being sort of quaint, they do sort of make sense for certain types of units in certain kinds of conditions. Some armies today are investigating equipping some troops (probably MPs) with mountain bikes. After all, a man on a bike with 40 lbs of stuff can travel 60 miles in 6 hours on roads or even (dry) paths. Traffic congestion would not be much of a problem, and the bike could easily be taken around roadblocks or obstacles that would stop a truck.

Of course, they're useless in Russian style mud, or snow.

[David Aitken]

I just performed the long lost art of doing a search and came up with these:

*Motorcycles*

No Motorcycles\sidecars in CM?

German Motorcycle thing... um...

Bicycle troops

[ASL Veteran]

I thought I read somewhere on this board that motorcycles were in , but horses and bicycles were out . At any rate, motorcycles were standard TO&E in the recon portion of an early war Panzer Division. Panzertruppen Vol 1 has numerous first hand accounts of motorcycle troops fighting alongside tanks. There is even a photograph on the web where there are several German motorcycle troops ducking for cover behind a wall or a fence of some kind with their motorcycles sitting nearby.

For horses, thinking of them only in terms of German use would be short changing them since there were Soviet Cavalry Corps running around throughout the war. There were a few Italian Cavalry Divisions on the Eastern Front (who conducted at least one full blown cavalry charge - something every Italian should be proud to refight in CM2) along with several German Cossack formations (combined into an SS Division I think) who were used for anti partisan activities. I also read somewhere that Partisans are in too - so BTS does listen to popular demand if it is possible to add something . The more variety in units and choices the better I say.