Crack troops defeated by conscript hordes... damm !!!

[Blenheim]

I don´t know how real is this, really. In a 700 attack, me, the proud allied comander, was badly mauled by a huge amount of AI conscript troops. He outnumbered me in everything, including tanks (lone Sherm against two IV H and a half-track with the 75mm).

It happens to me quite often. I don´t know, maybe I am not really good using elite troops, but... Is this usual? Everytime I go with the "dumb horde" kind of force selection the result is the same.

Maybe is because I do not have any doubts of making "sacrifices" with my troops...

[Guest ckoharik]

I've played a few battles like this. It really comes down to not letting yourself get overwhelmed by the numbers in any one place. Elite troops should be able to deal enough damage to several limit the effectiveness of conscript troops one on one. But, if you let them close with a whole unit the conscripts are bound to whittle down your force.

On the reverse side, I've played conscripts versus crack/elite troops (AI) and have maanged to overwhelm them...sometimes. Artillery can be extremely useful in these situations as the moral of conscripts is a fragile thing. If they do manage to get through the barrage they'll be shaken enough to be broken easily by your Eee-lite fighting unit.

[Blenheim]

Piece of advice requested:

How can I use Elite troops effectively? What are the main advantages of elite? Why I should prefer those to masses of junk troops, directly taken from the kindergarden?

[russellmz]

heh sounds like panama all over again...

basically, there is a certain point where even the best of the best will be overwhelmed by numbers...

had you bought regulars inf and vet tanks you'd probably do better...

after all, we beat germany cause our huge numbers wasted their "superior" tanks..who cares if it takes five shermans to take a tger if at the end you still got one or two sherms and he has nothing?

[Warmaker]

How can I use Elite troops effectively?

*Personally, I find it much easier to use a small, well trained, equipped force. Easier to keep tabs on what they're doing and I seem to care more about my little Kampfgruppes. There's no one way to use small, elite troops effectively other than practice/experience.

What are the main advantages of elite?

*They don't flee on the first signs of casualties, suffer less casualties in getting out of artillery barrages, they engage targets faster and inflict more damage, are more accurate shots (great for the tanks/panzers). Also, HQ units may have more bonuses i.e.+2stealth/+1attack/+2morale. Easy way to see this is comparing a conscript rifle platoon's HQ to a crack/elite one's HQ.

Why I should prefer those to masses of junk troops, directly taken from the kindergarden?

*Again matter of preference. Some around here prefer to have masses of low quality troops and some (like me) prefer small, elite formations. Keep in mind that in choosing small, elite formations that you really have to know the strengths/weaknesses of your self and your men. Since you have fewer assets than say, a big Russian conscript horde, you can't really afford to make blundering mistakes. If you do make them, better come up with a quick plan on the fly and readjust to the new combat conditions.

To summarize it in my view: Small formations of elite units do the job more efficiently. I don't have to worry about dumb conscript troops running away from rocks being thrown at them.

Here's an example: I was using a conscript Volksturm Kampfgruppe in attacking an village held by a small, elite U.S. Airborne formation (30turn quick battle, attack, vs.AI). After suffering casualties but getting a firm grip around the main objective I felt both sides were low/out of ammo. Think I had a U.S. platoon pinned inside a church but I had about 2 platoons in good condition so I had them rush for close combat inside the building. The first squad got lit up pretty good but my Volksturm platoons got inside in a jiffy. After several very violent turns, the elite U.S. Airborne platoon cleaned up my numerically superior force, though they suffered casualties themselves. The Yanks still held the objective and the bodies of my worthless troops lay scattered about the church.

[Warmaker]

Oh, and another thing. This may be too large to cover in this small post but your tactics should be readjusted for a small force. One huge trick is that against a larger force, you somehow manage to engage them only piecemeal, thereby negating his numerical/firepower advantage. Don't fight for too long to allow yourself to be flanked by their numbers. Also, ensure your troops can mutually support each other for those straight forward/don't give a damn about casualties type of charges with fodder infantry. On map mortars w/spotter or LOS greatly help in breaking up such infantry assaults since conscripts may freeze or run away. A HMG team can greatly help in shooting up a point containing concentrations of such worthless troops.

[-E]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by russellmz:

who cares if it takes five shermans to take a tiger if at the end you still got one or two sherms and he has nothing?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm thinking the guys in the first 4 Shermans might care. *grin*

[The Commissar]

Warmaker puts it very well. As a person who prefers playing with large ammounts of lower-quality troops (although even I dislike using Conscripts) the main thing I much achieve is concentration, to use my numerical advantage better against the more skillful troops.

As a player with less, but more experienced troops, you must also achieve concentration and do it in such a manner that you strike, destroy, withdraw, and strike again in a different location. The quick responce time of Elite/Crack units makes this sort of combat very practical. Hit and Run tactics must be perfected if you are to win with these "Best of the Best" formations.

Also, as mentioned, you cannot afford to make mistakes. If you rush your men into what you thought was an enemy weak point and it was not, you are in trouble.

Use cover to your advantage as well. Conscripts and Greens dont spot troops very well, and when ambushed rout/break on the first volley. If you manage to catch a significant amount of the enemy troops in an ambush, you are likely to win the game after you rout the buggers off the map (conscripts/greens dont rally too well).

Hope this all helps you. Quantity VS Quality is sometimes a tough ordeal, but with practice you can win with either one.

[Foobar]

Elite troops can defend against superior numbers if you do everything right. Read some of Fionn's AAR's at CMHQ, you will see him using elite half-squads as front line ambush troops to great effect. They are used to ambush the frist wave recon forces of an attacking force.

These squads do everything well. They spot better, their command delays are short, they dont panic too easily. BUT, they run out of ammo, and die to enemy fire as much as the next man.

Use them to disrupt the hell out of an enemy attack. Ambush, fall back,do it again. Dont get pinned down. The key to winning against a superior force is to deny them information by bloodying their noses when ever they try to sniff you out. And if they decide to barge in without recon, even better. A big blind enemy is fun to kill.

But watch your ammo. Watch out for useless firefights.

[Warmaker]

If you're still unsure just try Regular troops. You can't go wrong with an all veteran formation also. I tend to get veteran infantry while the few Panzers I get are usually Crack/Elite.

[109 Gustav]

I just played a QB in which I defended with conscript Germans against Crack AI troops. It was a fairly standard map, 1000 points, rural, rain, medium trees and hills. It was quite fun, except that I lost to the AI :eek: for the first time in quite awhile.

I found that the best strategy is to buy enough troops to set up two defensive lines. The first one goes at the edge of the setup zone. It's job is to inflict as many casualties as possible. However, they will not be able to hold, and you should never assume that they will.

The second line is set up around the flags. Leave the Company HQs here to restore the morale of the routed survivors of the first line. In all cases, you shouldn't move out of the foxholes, even if it looks like there's a good opportunity for a counterattack.

Unit selection is critical. I tried volksstrum, and they're ok, but you should also get plenty of SMG platoons for the first line. Conscript platoons are only 56 points, so get lots of them. AT guns are quite effective, but you should only count on one kill. If there's two tanks, the second one will have time to spot you and kill the gun. Therefore, quantity is more important than quality. Go for Pak40s rather than 88s; they're only going to live one turn.

20mm flak are also good, especially becuase light armor is a real threat to your troop's morale. Don't spend too many points on arty, the delays will be about two minutes more than your'e used to, and chances are the spotter will be pinned before he can fire any rounds.

Possibly the best units are AT pillboxes. Put them far back enough that tanks can't kill them easily, and you'll be able to keep enemy tanks off of your inf.

In no cases should you count on your panzershrecks making kills, because they won't.

The biggest enemy of conscript is anything that goes Boom. This includes onboard mortars and any form of arty. One 81mm treeburst will pin an entire platoon for a turn; two rounds is enough to rout a squad. Don't bother using the big stuff, 81mm mortars and at most, 105mm will work fine against conscripts.

Become really familiar with the withdraw command, especally to pull the first line back.

[Scooter]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

I just played a QB in which I defended with conscript Germans against Crack AI troops. .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Has there been a recent patch that allows this sort of thing (in a 2 player game)? Did I miss something? When I play a QB, I'm unable to have Elite tanks with Regular infantry.

I know the host will select the quality for both sides and I also know that in a 1 player vs. the AI game, you can set it up like above. To have a wide mix of troop quality makes perfect sense. I've been unable to do it though -until now it seems?

Thanks.

[-=reef=-]

One thing i feel is very important in beating green troops with veterans is keeping in the command radius of your HQ's. Their extra attributes are a very powerfull things but if your troops are not in contact with the HQ, they just become normal again. Having these bonuses for all your troops whilst fighting really makes the difference. I tend to use a company HQ with stealth with any ambushing ATG's i may posses, works a treat.

[109 Gustav]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scooter:

Has there been a recent patch that allows this sort of thing (in a 2 player game)? Did I miss something? When I play a QB, I'm unable to have Elite tanks with Regular infantry.

I know the host will select the quality for both sides and I also know that in a 1 player vs. the AI game, you can set it up like above. To have a wide mix of troop quality makes perfect sense. I've been unable to do it though -until now it seems?

Thanks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like I said, I was playing against the AI. I set my experience to low and the AIs to high.

[Andrew H.]

I've done several battles where I've attacked with Greens vs. Veteran troops, and what's interesting about doing that is that the best way I've found to attack with inexperienced troops is similar to Gustav's way of defending: use two waves.

The first wave will not be enough to take your objective, but you can cause some casualties and, ideally, cause the Vets to run low on ammunition. Sometimes you can use artillery to good effect, if you decide ahead of time that you won't try to take the VL with your first wave and instead hit it with artillery. Often, that's where the enemy will be. (And green arty is better than conscript, although it's not exactly flexible).

Only after your first wave is completely exhausted should you bring up the second wave; a fresh wave is often enough to overcome the worn out veterans.

But you have to be careful -- a fresh vet platoon, perhaps with an MG, can, in an ideal situation, completely devastate a green company. This happens if you advance too quickly and your greens get caught in close range firefights, pinned, and then shot up at leisure.

Maybe with conscripts you could use *three* waves.

[ADAman]

You might be a victim of Frederick Lanchester's "N-Squared" theory. This is the most famous equation in warfare mathematics (O.K., maybe Forrest's "Git thar furstest with the mostest" may beat it out). It basically says fighting strength goes up as the square of the number of units (all other things being equal). I was going to try and make some intelligent comments (a first for me) on the current and ever popular MG controversy using Lanchester's model but realized I didn't have enough understanding of it to ensure I correctly applied it. I've ordered a book containing his original manuscript and after digesting it, if I think there is something I can say that adds to CM, whether it is on MGs or what should be the cost of units, I'll post a topic. In the meantime, if you want to see what Lanchester says, you can use a search engine with his name and words like math and warfare. I've included a URL that links to one such site.

Lanchester's mathmatics of warfare

[Wilhammer]

Once, vs the AI, I put conscript VS in some woods, behind a wall on a revese slope, a platoon of them with one HMG, and 3 waves of crack US paras came over the top and got slaughtered platoon by platoon, and the VS lost 2 guys and suffered morale no worse than pinned.

I was very pleased with myself.