How big was a Penther's weakspot???

[OGSF]

Playing my 864th PBEM and one of my Panther's faces off against an M5 Stuart at just over 300 yards, front to front. I joke in the email before the movie "you're Stuart better not get a 'turret penetration at weak spot'".

Well rodger a badger on my behalf folks...

I am well used to the bountifully modelled "**it happen's" element in CM. But a Stuart can supposedly penetrate 54mm of armour at ranges over 100 meters. The front turret armour on a Panther is 110mm.

So how is it that the M5 Stuart is such a Uber-Panther killer in CM?? And if this is such an isolated occurence, how was I able to call it before it happened?

My problem is that I have complete faith in BTS's armour penetration model. Yet I lose a Panther face on to a Stuart 300 meters away. And it's happened often enough that it must have been common.

Was it? And just how big was that AP magnet of a "weak spot" anyhoo??

(And if it sounds like I'm having a whinge, bloody right I am!)

Any grogs have a clue?

OGSF

[Vanir Ausf B]

Oh man, if I had a nickle for every one of these posts

A weak spot on a Panther would likely be a MG port. I believe there is a flat 1% chance of hitting one.

Also, note that all Panthers except the G late have a shot trap, whick significantly increases the chance of a weak point penetration. In that case it would be the shell richocheting off the turret down through the top of the hull, but the message you get is just "weak point penetration".

[PzKpfw 1]

Heh try this, I had an M4A3E8 & a Panther Ausf G late slug it out at 50m head on, 1st rounds both tanks hit, both rounds bounced off the front hulls .

I also watched an Tiger E bounce 4, 8.8 cm rounds off the front hull of another M4A3E8 at 505m, and an M4 75mm shrug off the combined fire of an JdPz IV 75/L48 & Hetzer at 500m, It was quite the gunfight to watch as a Horde of US armor tore thru my left flank & ran smack into my TD line of 2 Hetzer's, 2 Marder III's & 1 JdPz IV .

BTW I have lost Panthers to Stuarts at 800m with TF weak spot hits. . If your using Panther Ausf. A's or early G's then the shot trap exists, if you get Ausf.G late the shot trap is eliminated but you can still get weak point penetrations, on the glacis & turret front.

Regards, John Waters

[ 07-05-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ]

[Joe Shaw]

Well the typical weak spot is at the joint where the two jaws of the pincer come together. How long have you had that lisp?

Joe

[Michael Dorosh]

Is this the same Panther with a rounded gun mantlet that Allied tankers were trained to aim for - so that their round would deflect off the underside of the mantlet and through the very thin armour over the driver's head?

I know that this shot trap is definitely modelled specifically in CM.

Check out the TV show The Valour and the Horror - Radley Walters, an ex Canadian tanker, demonstrates the shot trap on an actual Panther to an interviewer. Not much of a target to aim for.

Wilson also mentions it in his book FLAMETHROWER, about Churchill tanks in Normandy.

Or check out Max Hastings' OVERLORD.

[Slapdragon]

Why not test it. Build a map with twenty "tunneks" stretching across open area, that is lower terrain surrounded by higher terrain walls (to keep Stuarts from shooting at each other). Populate it with 20 Sturarts with 5 shots on one side, and 500 meters away 20 ammoless Panthers stuck in some terrain feature (place the panthers first, then the terrain feature). If possible do not dig them in. Take this scenario and run it one turn. How many Panthers die, in how many shots by the 20 Stuarts.

Repeat this test 3 or so times to let the law of large numbers build up. Then tabulate yoru results. number of shots/number of kills @ 500 meters. You can even try to count hits / kills.

Save your turns as files so othe can view your setup.

So far there have been 8594 post of these types, always german tank being defeated by an allied. In 3 or 4 they were tested this way, and everything was found to be rather marginal. It is just that people often play Germans and use the tanks more as battering rams (allowing them to trapse around in the open) and the high ROF US tanks evenually get lucky.

[Stalin's Organ]

Oh....WEAK spot!!

It makes sense now!

[OGSF]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Why not test it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks there Slappy, but I got tired just reading the instructions. I did whip up a QB with 6 early Panther Gs' vs 15 Stuarts, range was probably about 800 yards. 14 Stuarts killed in 60 seconds. Some scratched paint on the Panthers.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So far there have been 8594 post of these types, always german tank being defeated by an allied.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Turn it up, sport. "Hetzers are too cheap!" "Tigers are indestructable!" "SMG squads are ubermenschen!" Ring a bell?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> In 3 or 4 they were tested this way, and everything was found to be rather marginal. It is just that people often play Germans and use the tanks more as battering rams (allowing them to trapse around in the open) and the high ROF US tanks evenually get lucky.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I was battering my way with a river between us. I'm amazed the AI didn't pop smoke and reverse my Panther once it spotted teh dreaded Stuart! Oh, and the Stuart got lucky with it's high ROF first shot. The rest of what you say may well be true, but not relevant in this case.

What I had forgotten was the old "trap shot" trick. It sucks, but that was the answer.

OGSF

[Stuka]

Hey OGSF!

Do a search!.....

Damned newbies......

[Kwazydog]

Just so you guys know, I am pretty sure that when the shot trap is hit it is listed as a 'weak spot'.

Dan

[Warmaker]

You know, this irked me too when I first started playing CMBO. In other games like Close Combat, a Panther and Tiger was quite indestructible. CMBO changed things around quite a bit.

The trick is, unless the situation is dire and calls for it, don't do anything too crazy like sending a lone Panther in the open where you know there's a bunch of tanks and AT defenses. Uberpanzer or not, you're asking for trouble. Treat your Big Cats carefully and employ them properly with support if possible. After all, you did pay lots of points for them so be careful

[rexford]

The only thing that might impact a 37mm round and not apply to 75mm hits is what happens when the round ricochets off the rounded mantlet underside.

37mm ammo is long and thin, compared to 75mm, and probably would bend and fly off at an odd angle. Meaning much less penetration when it hits the hull top, maybe even too little to penetrate.

No one has a model to predict percentage of mantlet ricochets that defeat the Panther, since data and theoretical stuff is in short supply.

It might be that 37mm rounds would not ricochet down from the mantlet and penetrate the hull top, due to bending and distortion as they bounce. 75mm ammo has much higher bending resistance and stronger nose.

There are reports of 75mm kills on Panther via mantlet ricochet, anyone ever read of a Stuart getting such a penetration?

Regarding weak spots on Panther hull, first M10 combats against Panther in France only resulted in frontal penetrations against tank via ricochet from mantlet bottom, and hits on MG ball that drove it into tank and set Panther on fire. No M10 penetrations of any other frontal armor, including the mantlet itself.

[rexford]

Giving high rate of fire guns the same effectiveness against tank weak spots was one of the joys of the TRACTICS ruleset decades ago.

A machine gun, quad .50 cal halftrack or 20mm auto cannon would plaster a King Tiger with hits and some would end up going down the 88 barrel and doing all sorts of damage, or would find their way through a vision opening, or down the hull machine gun barrel, or between two armor plates, etc.

High rate of fire is usually associated with smaller rounds, and small ammo is more impacted by all sorts of things than 75mm projectiles.

Slope effects for 37mm APCBC are head and shoulders higher than 57mm APCBC through 90mm APCBC, so it would be reasonable to assume that when 37mm hits 100mm cast mantlet at a high angle the nose gets bent more than 75mm round.

A bent nose would seem to result in more chance of awkward flight angles down towards the Panther hull top, where the nose impact angle on armor is different from the projectile direction.

High rate of fire comes with some features that are bound to decrease the effectiveness.

[rexford]

Based on the area that has to be hit to ricochet a round down on the Panther hull top, what is the overall probability of doing the job?

What is the total area in terms of meters squared or feet squared?

I think the Canadian expert at ricochet Panther kills defined the size but I don't have the web site address anymore, could someone post it on this thread.

Thanks.

[abuhabib]

hmm. ok. my case: a sherm 76 against a panther g late at under 60 metres, gun damaged. in one turn, 4 shots richocet into the sunset! in fact, this particular sherm richoceted all its shots on the panther. i had another sherm go behind the panther 2 kill it! :eek:

[Maximus]

I don't know about Stuarts, but since the v1.1 patch when Tungsten use was fixed, I sure as hell don't under-estimate any Allied tank now against Tigers or Panthers.

[Dittohead]

Even IF a 37mm could penetrate the drivers hatch on a ricochet, what's the worst it could do besides give the driver a splitting headache. :eek: It might shock and immobilize the Panther but I highly doubt that it would take one out with a ricochet.

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dittohead:

Even IF a 37mm could penetrate the drivers hatch on a ricochet, what's the worst it could do besides give the driver a splitting headache. :eek: It might shock and immobilize the Panther but I highly doubt that it would take one out with a ricochet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have always wondered if a 37mm round after hitting the mantlet & being bounced down on the hatch would even have the power left to penetrate the hatch, as the mantlet would have absorbed most of the initial impact force.

Think a museam would let us shoot 37mm rounds at one of their Panther's so we could find out ..

Regards, John waters

[ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ]

[aka_tom_w]

You should NEVER underestimate the fluke nature of a hit and penetration with the Allied 37 mm Main Weapon in this game.

Its on the Greyhound and the Stuart and I have found that is will penetrate almost ANY flank and any rear aspect of ANY german AFV.

I am totally surprised by how often it will penetrate at a weakspot against the heavy tanks. The 37 mm in the Stuart and Greyhound comes with alot of ammo and plenty of AP and it is surprisingly effective!

Too bad we can't play with the Grant and Lee series with the 75 mm main weapon and the 37 mm in the turret on the top! now that would be FUN!

-tom w

[Ron]

It can get pretty big some games lol :eek: , but what never fails to get a chuckle is seeing a HT get KO'd from a 'weak spot' penetration, I wonder what happened there.

Ron

[rexford]

Could some provide the web site address where the Canadian tanker talks about Panther kills through mantlet ricochets and estimates the size of the area he had to hit.

Thanks.

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

I have always wondered if a 37mm round after hitting the mantlet & being bounced down on the hatch would even have the power left to penetrate the hatch, as the mantlet would have absorbed most of the initial impact force.

Think a museam would let us shoot 37mm rounds at one of their Panther's so we could find out ..

Regards, John waters

[ 07-06-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually John I saw direct evicence of this. The 37mm round stops and knocks on the driver's hatch, then shoots in and bounces around the tank. At least it did when bugs bunny shot the round.

Seriously, the Patton, a superior tank to the Panther / Tiger, was threatened by slow firing 37mm AT/AA guns in Korea and Vietnam. Light guns that could hit the tank a dozen times would cause metal fatigue and lead to spalling inside the tank, killing crew. I am not sure if this is even modelled in CM (ie, ring the bell of the tank turret enough and you weaken the amror for an eventual penetration).

In addition there is the issue of crew fatigue and terror. Supposedly, you could get Arab tankers in the AI wars to abandon a tank if you could shoot out some vision blocks.

Not related, and having nothing to do with the game, was the practice of isreali light recon aircraft to drop boxes of coke bottles on Arab tanks. Arab tankers were trained to get out if they were hit by an M40 spotting round, and it turned out that this sounded like a coke bottle dropping onto the tank. The crew was then gunned down as they got out . But I wonder how blind Arab tanks were that they did not notice an isreali recon plane flying back and forth trying to pot them with a bottle.

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Seriously, the Patton, a superior tank to the Panther / Tiger, was threatened by slow firing 37mm AT/AA guns in Korea and Vietnam. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL I thought those were the ones where it stopped in mid air & a note came out .

Seriously though I'm not discussing an 37mm AA gun, as in the Stuart's 37mm did not have the same ROF. Or did the question concern the effects of repeated hits on one section of armor.

I'm asking if an single 37mm round would have the KE, or the velocity left after impacting on the mantlet to penetrate the Ausf.G's 16mm hull roof/hatch armor, after the initial impact.

Regards, John Waters

[ 07-07-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ]