Visible antitank mines

[mikeadams]

I am sure this has been discussed before, but the search engine locks up any time I try to use it.

Should we be able to see the location of anti-tank mines? Surely the whole point is that they should be buried and invisible, especially from inside a tank. While it is great as the attacker to see the 'Achtung Minen' signs, and carefully avoid them, as the defender it is frustrating to see the enemy stop *just* before running over a carefully placed mine.

As an alternative, why not let us buy dummy signs for almost no cost. that way the attacker has to decide if the sign can be ignored or not.

[Commander]

I drove a Sherman Crok over some mines once (didn't know they were there) - stopped, decided to reverse and BOOM! my tank blew up. Maybe the attacker can only see them when the tank is unbuttoned and moving in Hunt mode.

[Kingfish]

The 'Actung minen' sign can only be seen by the defender. Only when one of the attackers units sets off a mine will the sign become visible to the attacker.

Also, daisy chain mines are visible throughout the game. Perhaps those are the ones the your tankers see.

[Conscript Bagger]

Also note the difference between "antitank mines" and "daisy chain antitiank mines" on the purchase screen - the daisy chain variety represent a hasty emplacement laid on the surface, and is visible once the enemy comes close. The other kind are buried and remain invisible until one goes off, like Kingfish said. Other people have said that engineers can spot hidden minefields nearby, but I haven't ever seen it in a game.

[Alan]

My engineers spotted some mines in a QB last night. The mines were on a road next to the building the engineers were hiding in. I don't know if they were anti tank or anti personel mines.

[Sapper69]

Im a Combat Engineer and mines are my job. Today many conventional minefields are surface laid so that the enemy can see them in order to shape their attack and make the go where you want them to. Although I believe this is a modern tactic and not used much in WW2. I beleive in the game the only way they will see them is if a combat engineer is on the ground moving in front or a vehicle gets a minestrike.

[Kingfish]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alan:

My engineers spotted some mines in a QB last night. The mines were on a road next to the building the engineers were hiding in. I don't know if they were anti tank or anti personel mines.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you can see the sign then zoom in until you can read it. An AT minefield will say 'Actung, minen panzer'

[Alan]

Thanks, I was wondering how to tell the difference. I think I still have that game saved so I'll look and see when I get home.

[Mud]

Or, check the color. With the default images, white => AP, yellow => AT (possibly daisy-chain; perhaps they use the same .BMP so you can't differentiate).

(Oh, and on a road? If it's a paved road, they MUST be daisy-chain, IIRC; the engine won't let you bury mines in asphalt. Mining dirt roads is perfectly legal, 'tho.)

Oh, and somebody once posted that you could get direct kills even with the very visible daisy-chains -- not just indirect ones by diverting attackers into a kill zone. Put them in a place where a zooming vehicle won't see until it's too late, such as the reverse slope of a hill road, or around a curve. Maybe more so if you have something to distract the vehicle with, like a sharpshooter taking out the TC.

[dunc]

Is it possible for mines to be recognised incorrectly? such as, AT mistaken with infantry mines.

[Kingfish]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dunc:

Is it possible for mines to be recognised incorrectly? such as, AT mistaken with infantry mines.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. The signs are hard-coded.

Edit: one way to fool your opponent is to overlap or stack different types of mines. Since AP mines are harmless to vehicles your opponent might plot his tanks across them, only to fall prey to the AT mines underneath.

[ 10-11-2001: Message edited by: Kingfish ]

[Pvt. Ryan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mud:

Or, check the color. With the default images, white => AP, yellow => AT (possibly daisy-chain; perhaps they use the same .BMP so you can't differentiate).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure about that? I thought the default graphics were white for all mine signs and that the AT mines were changed with a mod. I can't check right now and I haven't used the default graphics for a long time, so I am not sure.

As far as spotting mines, every time this topic comes up some people insist that AP and AT (non-daisy) mines are not spotted until they go off, while others insist they can be spotted under the right circumstances. I have never spotted a minefield before it did any damage, but that certainly isn't proof. The manual is ambiguous on the subject and I don't think BTS has ever given an answer.

[ 10-11-2001: Message edited by: Pvt. Ryan ]

[Mud]

Hmmm. I am using modded mine signs as well, come to think about it. So they might both be white in the original. As for visibility, did anybody ever make a test map? e.g. seeing if engineers spot better, or if experience / suppression helps, or... Hrm. Oh, one tangentially related bit of silliness I tried last night -- yes, minefields work in buildings (create minefield, drop building on it). With sufficient minefields and engineers to toss demo charges, the house can explode just like the one bridge demolition method. It's not terribly useful, perhaps, except for very strange scenarios (rear-guard unit in top-floor of a rigged building, and engineers with orders to blow it instead of letting it be captured?) but it does work.

[Maastrictian]

As I am a Red Blooded Capitalist American I do not use mods and can tell you that white is the default color for all mines signs.

--Chris

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maastrictian:

As I am a Red Blooded Capitalist American I do not use mods and can tell you that white is the default color for all mines signs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the bases are the same color as the rest of that side's forces. Same holds for wire and roadblocks.

More often than not my troops spot mine fields planted in the open from something like 100 meters out. But not always. Minefields in trees or other concealment can be unspotted until triggered.

Again, minefields should not be expected to play as destructive weapons, but as area denial weapons. Their purpose is not so much to kill the enemy, though that can be a welcome bonus, as to delay and channel his movement. A sound use of mines is to hang the enemy up in a kill zone covered by destructive weapons.

Michael

[mikeadams]

OK! OK! I have egg on myy face, and probably on other parts of my anatomy as well. I reran a couple of scenarios and, yes.. most of the time I was seeing daisy-chain mines. The other times I must chalk up to my complete lack of observational skills: apparently my tanks must have run over the mines but I never noticed.

I would still like to have dummy mine signs. Anyone know how widely this ploy was used in real life?null

[-Havermeyer-]

Really, a lot of the "paved" roads were actually cobble roads. So couldn't you lift out some cobbles, place the mine, and reset the cobbles in the "pavement".

[jshandorf]

In my experience with mines I have seen it all. I have spotted mines before I run into them AT or AP. There have been times that my units have went into mine fields and not spotted them even after a minestrike.

One thing I have not seen is engineers remove mines. I would really love instructions on how to do this right.

Jeff

[Speedbump]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf:

One thing I have not seen is engineers remove mines. I would really love instructions on how to do this right.

Jeff<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that all you do is move the engineer to within a few meters of the minefield. If not panicked, they should clear the minefield after one or two turns.

Speedbump

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jshandorf:

In my experience with mines I have seen it all. I have spotted mines before I run into them AT or AP. There have been times that my units have went into mine fields and not spotted them even after a minestrike.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe. Memories . . .

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>One thing I have not seen is engineers remove mines. I would really love instructions on how to do this right.

Jeff<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have found that the best way to do this is to first clear off all the enemy units that can cover the minefield with direct fire, then move your Engineer unit next to the minefield and wait. The engineers MUST have at least one, and preferably two, demolition charges to be successful. Leave the engineers there for a couple of turns and they will usually clear it. I would hazard a guess that there is a set chance that they will fail no matter what, but I haven't seen it happen too much. If the first engineer uses all its demo charges and doesn't succeed in clearing the field, pull it back and move up another until you get the field cleared.

I try to avoid bunching all my engineers up around one minefield because of their vulnerability to indirect fire (or direct fire if the enemy makes a rush at the position).

[ 10-12-2001: Message edited by: MrSpkr ]

[Mud]

Aye. Whoever places the minefield could be covering it with a hidden HMG, or an arty spotter (TRP even) just hoping to pick off some nice, expensive engineers. If you're really paranoid about ambushes, it might be a good idea to smoke the area behind the minefield to give your engineers some concealment from DF at least.