Fire indicators

[CavScout]

I would love to have some way of IDing what units have received fire turning a turn (during the movie phase). I hate it when I can hear fire being recieved but can not tell who is receiving it. Of course nothing is wrose than finding a unit with a loss during themovement phase that you didn't even know was under fire.

I would love flashing bases or something.

[L.Tankersley]

Maybe a second level of warning text (the shift-G warning labels only show when you're panicked or broken IIRC; if there were various levels of warning text enable you could quickly spot "Alerted" or "Cautious" squads). Screen clutter would get to be a problem, though...

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Leland J. Tankersley

[CavScout]

Originally posted by L.Tankersley:

Maybe a second level of warning text (the shift-G warning labels only show when you're panicked or broken IIRC; if there were various levels of warning text enable you could quickly spot "Alerted" or "Cautious" squads). Screen clutter would get to be a problem, though...

Interesting points. To avoid that "clutter" is why I suggested flashing bases. I just would like a way to close in on a unit during playback to see what happened.

[L.Tankersley]

Yeah; I suggest using the warning labels because that's a feature that's already implemented, and it wouldn't require much new code, while flashing bases would probably be a New Feature. (Not that I expect anything before CM2 anyway, mind.) Possibly several different levels of warning labels (like the different levels of tree coverage) that you could cycle through (e.g. "serious states" what we have now, "minor states" which would show only alerted/cautious states, and "all states" which would give you everything.

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Leland J. Tankersley

[aka_tom_w]

I agree with this one all the way

I have also been frustrated during the game trying to find out where the fire is coming from and who is receiving it.

There is no good way that I know of (while wathcing the movie) to determine who is being fired at, and it is not unreasonable to suggest that as the player of the game (or commander of the forces) we could somehow "option on" some form of flashing bases or alert message to let us know which units are under fire.

I REALLY like the flashing bases idea (does any one actually play the game with the bases OFF?)

Great Idea, maybe it can make it into CM2!

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 02-15-2001).]

[Tiger]

There is a way to see which units are taking fire already in the game: move around the map and look. Listen to the sounds. Look for the tracers, the cries of your men. Flashing bases has got to be the silliest idea I've seen in awhile.

I for one don't play with the unit bases turned on. Never have used them. Haven't had a problem knowing which units are under fire. It adds to the immersion not knowing everything flawlessly. A "commander" would not know which units are taking fire unless he was suspended above the battlefield in a hot air balloon or was in radio contact at all times.

JMTCW

-Tiger

[CavScout]

Originally posted by Tiger:

There is a way to see which units are taking fire already in the game: move around the map and look. Listen to the sounds. Look for the tracers, the cries of your men. Flashing bases has got to be the silliest idea I've seen in awhile.

I don't want to have to sit through a one minute movie with each unit just to see if they are taking fire. Perhaps you have that much time to waste but I don't.

Not all incomming has tracers or produces casualties and not all are easily tracked down.

I for one don't play with the unit bases turned on. Never have used them.

Good for you. Should we eliminate bases because you don't use them?

Haven't had a problem knowing which units are under fire. It adds to the immersion not knowing everything flawlessly. A "commander" would not know which units are taking fire unless he was suspended above the battlefield in a hot air balloon or was in radio contact at all times.

You better be arguing for the removal of detailed hits on enemy armor before railing against knowing what units of your own are under fire. Besides, in CM you are the "commander" suspended above the battlefield and in contact at all times.

[Richlop]

Flashing bases has got to be the silliest idea I've seen in awhile.

Yeah guys, quit being so silly. (er, actually, i play with bases on). I actually kind of like the idea, but I wonder how it would work exactly. Does that mean everyone's bases would blink whenever they were fired at? Or would bases only blink for units that have no idea where the fire is coming from, and how easy would that be to work(code) into a game?

[This message has been edited by Richlop (edited 02-15-2001).]

[russellmz]

Originally posted by Tiger:

There is a way to see which units are taking fire already in the game: move around the map and look. Listen to the sounds. Look for the tracers, the cries of your men. Flashing bases has got to be the silliest idea I've seen in awhile.

I for one don't play with the unit bases turned on. Never have used them. Haven't had a problem knowing which units are under fire. It adds to the immersion not knowing everything flawlessly. A "commander" would not know which units are taking fire unless he was suspended above the battlefield in a hot air balloon or was in radio contact at all times.

JMTCW

-Tiger

a little harsh dude

i used to play with bases off, but now like the fact i can find my guys easier(plus in my gamey massed tank scenarios, it's cool when in view 8 to see about ten bases "turn off" at the same time). flashing bases should ,of course, only affect those who have them on in the first place...

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russellmz,

Self-Proclaimed Keeper for Life of the Sacred Unofficial FAQ.

"They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush

"They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show

[CavScout]

Originally posted by Richlop:

Yeah guys, quit being so silly. (er, actually, i play with bases on). I actually kind of like the idea, but I wonder how it would work exactly. Does that mean everyone's bases would blink whenever they were fired at? Or would bases only blink for units that have no idea where the fire is coming from, and how easy would that be to work(code) into a game?

I'd say have them "blink/flash" during playback for any unit that has received fire. Then you could go to that unit and watch the playback to try and figure out what happened.

[Richlop]

My only thought is, would it be possible to have unit bases blink when the enemy is firing but nowhere to be found, rather than have bases blink whenever they are fired on. I can just picture a full on firefight with all units (friend and foe) in view, with everyone's bases blinking away madly. Could be potentially distracting (short of turning off bases for playback).

[This message has been edited by Richlop (edited 02-15-2001).]

[Michael Dorosh]

FWIW I have never used bases.

I find my men by switcing the unit scale to Maximum during the orders phase, then switching it back down to normal for the movie. Seems to work fine for locating units (I hate bases).

I agree that a feature indicating who has taken fire would be useful - I like the suggestion regading tags; for my own style of play it is superior to flashing bases.

The best bet would be to include both systems to please those who prefer bases and those who don't.

[Jeff Heidman]

Originally posted by Tiger:

There is a way to see which units are taking fire already in the game: move around the map and look. Listen to the sounds. Look for the tracers, the cries of your men. Flashing bases has got to be the silliest idea I've seen in awhile.

Except that it is often the case (when the firer has not been spotted) that there is no tracer.

I had an infantry gun get half the crew killed and the gun get abandoned without ever seeing a tracer, or even an enemy unit.

I for one don't play with the unit bases turned on. Never have used them. Haven't had a problem knowing which units are under fire. It adds to the immersion not knowing everything flawlessly.

True, but I do not think anyone is asking to know everything flawlessly.

They just want a better way of seeing information that is already available. They *could* pause the game every second and go through and check every unit individually, but that is a bit tedious.

A "commander" would not know which units are taking fire unless he was suspended above the battlefield in a hot air balloon or was in radio contact at all times.

JMTCW

-Tiger

What commander?

Since the player is taking on the role of the squad leader in addition to company commander he would certainly notice when one of his troops keels over dead.

Jeff Heidman

[Jeff Heidman]

Originally posted by Tiger:

I for one don't play with the unit bases turned on.

JMTCW

-Tiger

So this wouldn't effect you anyway.

Jeff Heidman

[aka_tom_w]

Jeff Says:

"They just want a better way of seeing information that is already available. They *could* pause the game every second and go through and check every unit individually, but that is a bit tedious."

I think this is the heart of the issue. The info is there on the screen but you have to look at every individual unit during the movie play back to see who was fired on.

Some of us really enjoy the timer on the TCP/IP function and like to set is a very low setting for speed play to make the game feel like an RTS to get the adrenaline flowing. With that in mind I would like to have ALL the info I can get as fast as possible including who is taking fire and what is the effect of that fire, "Are my men dying?" "Can I see where it is coming from?"

As the Player of the game do I REALLY need to get down on the ground and "poll" every unit to see if that is the unit that was being shot at? (at this point I do, and Germanboy thinks thats OK and thats the way it should be, as you can see some folks here disagree)

I like the idea of some how alerting the player (ME) that a specific unit is under fire.

OK, maybe flashing the unit base is not the prettiest way to do this, I would be happy to settle for a warning label like the Shift G for routed and Broken units.

How about shift F for "unit under fire" ?

(is F taken?) I'm sure that can find a modifier key that is not "busy" for a warning label for "unit under fire".

OK here's another really crazy idea, (Hair brain scheme perhaps?) AFTER the movie stops you can show firing lines and see the yellow line the indicated that unit is targeted.

CRAZY Idea here, how about the OPTION (no one is forced to play this way) the option, to show those yellow targeting lines during the movie playback. I understand that this proposed option would have to be enabled and turned on before the turn was crunched and the movie was rendered as that lines likely could not be "rendered" and turned on and off on the fly during the play back, but would be nice to toggle on the yellow targeting lines to be seen during the movie? (This, in all actuality, may really be techincally infeasible, and or impossible but its just an idea).

-tom w

[This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 02-15-2001).]

[illo]

Yep, you get your blinky bases. Never used bases so doesnt affect me.

[Tiger]

If you add blinky bases don't forget the disco music. Then you could turn off all the lights in your room and ....n/m

Cavscout, I said nothing about eliminating bases. As an optional feature maybe as labels. I'd rather hope the programming effort go to something a little more important than blinky bases so you'll know exactly which units are taking fire when all the time. This has more to do with getting too much information and reducing the unknowns that really make give the game its feeling. If you're going to give blinky bases to units that get shot at you might as well give blinky bases to the unit that fired on it too. Maybe draw a blinking line from your unit's blinky base to the enemy unit's blinky base without having to select the unit and look at the yellow line like it is now. Maybe with the added roster BTS could put a button that lights up if the unit took fire the past turn.

again, JMHO

-Tiger

[Dirtweasle]

How does a unit know fire is *directed* at it? Did it cause a casuality, or change their supression? - OR - Do you want some indication if fire comes near them? Inthat case what is near? Within 1 meter, 5 or 10? Does it vary by caliber?

IMHO - It's just a "war thing" bullets are flying here and there, maybe the fire is directed at unit B-2, or maybe they just saw some loose fire riccochet (sp?) by them.

[Tom Callmeyer]

Actually, real Field Commanders and for that matter Grunts, usually do not have the luxury of seeing exactly where every shott that hits their men (or themselves) came from. If minute-by-minute you have a complete assessment of the status of every soldier under your command (which we do in CM) you know a lot more that the average field commander does in the real world.

[Simon Fox]

There may be some merit in the idea, but I had to laugh when tom wrote this

I have also been frustrated during the game trying to find out where the fire is coming from and who is receiving it.

Sounds like war to me

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"Stand to your glasses steady,

This world is a world of lies,

Here's a toast to the dead already,

And here's to the next man to die."

-hymn of the "Double Reds"

[Bullethead]

I'm reading this thread in a state of mild disbelief. I mean, BTS has gone to a great deal of trouble to implement the best, most realistic FOW system ever made. This whole thing about not knowing which specific units have taken fire from still-hidden enemy units is part of that FOW system. It's what the game is about. Enjoy the uncertainty of combat .

Seriously, I agree with Tiger 100%. Play the game as it was meant to be played. Get down in the mud with your troops and try to figure it out from their perspective. If you "don't have time for that", then turn off FOW.

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-Bullethead

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria.

[Michael Dorosh]

I never thought I'd defend Cavscout, but since I've been reduced to actually agreeing with him in the General Forum, I guess this was inevitable.

"Real" soldiers do know when they've come under fire. Bullet splashes, men dropping to the ground, etc. Yes, this is available in the movie playback, and despite the snide comments about "not having time" to watch the movie over and over, this is a fair point to make - if there is another way to indicate who has been shot at, short of watching the movie once for every squad, and memorizing how many men are in each squad at the beginning and end of every turn, I am all for it.

Has nothing to do with fog of war.

The request was to know which units came under fire - not from whence the fire came. Just who is being shot at (and knows it). Not an unrealistic request - if you have a battalion on the map, it would be a reasonable feature to have, without making any changes to Fog of War.

[CavScout]

Originally posted by Bullethead:

I'm reading this thread in a state of mild disbelief. I mean, BTS has gone to a great deal of trouble to implement the best, most realistic FOW system ever made. This whole thing about not knowing which specific units have taken fire from still-hidden enemy units is part of that FOW system. It's what the game is about. Enjoy the uncertainty of combat .

Seriously, I agree with Tiger 100%. Play the game as it was meant to be played. Get down in the mud with your troops and try to figure it out from their perspective. If you "don't have time for that", then turn off FOW.

No simple way to say this so I'll just say it, you line of "reasoning" is ignorant. I bet you have no problem playing with detailed armor hits on so you can see your effects on enemy armor. If you think knowing the effects of hits on enemy armor would be more "realistic" than knowing if your own units are under fire you are mistaken.

[Dirtweasle]

I would agree the individual soldiers can either see or hear fire comming there way. Certainly they would know, within a reasonable time, if someone in their squad took a round. I suspect though that from a gaming perspective, it is not desireable for you as the commander/gamer to be that hyper aware. I think that as the game stands now it seems correct enough. It does seem to me IMHO to be a fog of war issue, which in turn seems to add realism.

[CavScout]

Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I never thought I'd defend Cavscout, but since I've been reduced to actually agreeing with him in the General Forum, I guess this was inevitable.

"Real" soldiers do know when they've come under fire. Bullet splashes, men dropping to the ground, etc. Yes, this is available in the movie playback, and despite the snide comments about "not having time" to watch the movie over and over, this is a fair point to make - if there is another way to indicate who has been shot at, short of watching the movie once for every squad, and memorizing how many men are in each squad at the beginning and end of every turn, I am all for it.

Has nothing to do with fog of war.

The request was to know which units came under fire - not from whence the fire came. Just who is being shot at (and knows it). Not an unrealistic request - if you have a battalion on the map, it would be a reasonable feature to have, without making any changes to Fog of War.

Exactly. It is not a request to know who shot at them but just an indicator that a unit has come under fire. You could then focus on that unit in playback and try and determine where it came from, if possible.