How score is comuted???

[GenSplatton]

I figure this has been discussed before, but a forum search turned up nil. I was wondering if anyone can tell me how CM computed the score?

Here is the situation that's making me wonder. I just lost a QB 48-36. I controlled a minor VL. The other 2 VLs were contended. He took ten more casualties, I lost 3 more vehicles. Now, are VLs not that valuable? Seems odd you can win without controllig any. Is armor worth that many points? Just seems odd that I lost this game. Armor had to be the difference in my mind. Maybe it can be more of a hinderance to your score than a help.

[Mr. Johnson--]

All Vehicals are worth lots of points.

[JasonC]

The short answer is see page 101 of the manual.

The long answer is that your 3 extra lost tanks certainly made the difference. A small objective is worth 100 points, about the same as 1 infantry platoon or 1 plain vanilla tank. The 10 extra causalties might have been worth ~50 points for you, perhaps less, depending on who they were on each side.

So, you got 1 dead tank worth of objective, and half a dead tank worth of additional infantry kills, perhaps a bit less. Or even only 1 tank worth if it was an improved model.

Large flags are worth losing a tank or an infantry platoon for - 2 really. Small ones aren't, or at best you break even doing that. Small ones are good if you can take them cheaply - or more common, if you can give as good as you get and still get the flag into the bargain.

If you think the cost of the tanks is high, look at it this way. On a front of up to 300 map widths, advancing 300 map lengths, if you lose 1 tank per map, then the combined Western Allies run out of AFVs about the Rhine river. All types, everything made in the whole war.

Now, of course advances are often made more narrowly, and not all fights are as intense as CM tactical battles. On the other hand, sometimes the enemy comes your way, and often the losses on one map's area are much higher. It just illustrates that one can't trade tanks for distance over and over, and expect to make it the whole way.

Defeating the enemy and preserving your force is the basic mission most of the time. When it isn't, there will be a far higher concentration of flags on the map than normal, and large ones. There is one exception that is a little complicated, which I will cover last. This is the long answer after all.

The exception is exit victory conditions. Conceptually, when there are exit victory conditions the fight on your map matters for how it will effect more decisive events elsewhere, rather than for anything on the map itself. And exit victory conditions are not a "bonus" to the ordinary ones. A player with forces to exit will lose decisively if he does not manage to do so. The "should" in "should exit for points" is not a sugggestion.

The way exit VCs work is an exiting player earns several times the value of the piece for exiting it, while the opponent earns if it does not exit. Exiting on the one hand, and dying on the other (including failure to exit of course), balance each other. If half the exiter's force exits alive, and the other half stays and dies, then those units will have no net effect. Victory tends to turn on the -portion- of the exiters, that do exit. With "alive but still on the map" as an intermediate condition.

Scenario designers should keep the above in mind when trying to impliment and play-balance exit VCs. Only require exit of the whole force if you expect competent play by the attacker to get the majority of them through and alive.

Scenario designers can "tune" the level of importance of the exit VCs, by not requiring exit of everything. E.g. require only exit of tanks, which often find it easier to push through. Or one task force. This also allows the exiter to leave something on the map to hold open his route, and to retain objectives on the map.

That is the long answer. I hope some of it helps.

[Redwolf]

Add points from flags or knockouts to three parties:

- you

- opponent

- neutral (flags only)

That are the percentages you see at the end.

Units are worth what they cost, except arty spotters (30 points). Crewmembers are worth 6 points regular, 8 veteran. squads are computed by men, all worth the same, HQ alike. Capture is twice. Broken infantry or ammunition depleted doesn't make a difference (I think).

Now for some fun see what a 81mm mortar is worth when it is knocked out and the crew is captured.

[GenSplatton]

Thanks all. Jason, I saw nothing of interest on page 101 of the manual. It talked about supply and stuff. I looked up end game and it covered it some, but in no detail other than to tell you the difference between the kind of victories/losses.

[JasonC]

Look for After Action Reports. The pages may be different in different versions of the manual I suppose. There is not a heck of a lot of info, but each source of victory points is mentioned, right before the ratio of them needed for a given victory level. In my version anyway.

[Viceroy]

JasonC

My manual (got CM about 9 months ago) doesn't contain anywhere near the detailed amount of information on VP's. Thanks for explaining how it worked.

[ 06-04-2001: Message edited by: Viceroy ]

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JasonC:

The way exit VCs work is an exiting player earns several times the value of the piece for exiting it, while the opponent earns if it does not exit. Exiting on the one hand, and dying on the other (including failure to exit of course), balance each other. If half the exiter's force exits alive, and the other half stays and dies, then those units will have no net effect. Victory tends to turn on the -portion- of the exiters, that do exit. With "alive but still on the map" as an intermediate condition.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to interrupt the round robin of thanksgiving, but I asked specific questions about this weeks ago, and Madmatt said he would try and get some answers from BTS about this. He didn't know the answer, which leads me to think it is fairly complicated.

Now, my question to you is - how do you know with precision how this works? If you have done extensive testing of exit victory conditions, etc., I am willing to take your word, but I am wondering if this isn't just supposition on your part.

While I agree that my own experiences show that units marked for exit do indeed have to exit or they will lose you points, I still remain in doubt as to exactly how units that become casualties will be scored - ie losing full points for becoming casualties and then doubled for not exiting, or merely penalized for dying.

I suspect there are ways of testing this (or it is possible BTS answered and I missed it). Are either of these the case, or are you merely supposing?

You seem to indicate, through use of the phrase "intermediate condition" that VC are doled out as follows

KIA - lose points for KIA and not exiting

Alive and on map - lose points for not exiting

Exiting - gain points for exiting

Or are you saying

KIA - lose points for KIA and not exiting

Alive and on map - no points gained or lost

Exiting - gain points for exiting

Or does it work that a unit eliminated only loses points for being eliminated and isn't also penalized for not exiting (is it possible that this is only reserved for units on the map and alive?)

Now the part Madmatt didn't get is - what about a unit that suffers 50% casualties and exits. How are points awarded in that case?

What about a unit that suffers 50% casualties and stays on the map at game end? What then?

And how could you possibly know the answer?

Incidentally, I love the title of this thread. Like the mass murderer, I often pray for commutation...only rather than being commuted from death to life in prison, I wish for commutation from defeat to victory....

[ 06-04-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Redwolf]

[partly rewritten for readability]

Testing:

Build a scenario, with only one small flag.

Add the unit you want to test to one force, add a platoon to the same force. Give the other force something that is dangerous and invulnerable, i.e. buttoned tanks with two MGs each.

Place the extra platoon somewhere in woods where they don't come near the flag or the superior force during the game. You will need it to prevent auto-surrender.

Place the unit you want to test between the enemy tanks so that it is captured or killed. Or else place it somewhere else where so that it can't be killed and can exit if you want to test that.

At the end of the game (you do hot-seat and cease-fire when the situation you want to test for is there), the flag should be neutral. If it is neutral, the displayed percentages for the two forces don't add up to 100%, neutral has a flag. This eliminates the unknow from the formular. Since you know that neutral has exactly 100 points from the flag and the superior force has no losses, you can calculate the points the force got from its displayed percentage.

That way you can test for exit points by adding a squad with "should exit" set in the editor (as always, this to-be-tested unit in addition to the survivor platoon that does nothing but prevent auto-surrender) and play several times, one time placing the "exit-ers" in the middle of the tanks so that it is killed, next time so that it can exit over the appropriate edge undisturbed.

Let me know if you want a calculation example or post the percentage you get.

Hope this helps.

[ 06-05-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Sten]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> How score is comuted??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, much like everyboby else. By train or bus.

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by redwolf:

Testing:

Edit a scenario with one small flag..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would rather edit your post for run on sentences, grammar and spelling....

Especially the following:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If it is neutral, the displayed percentatges for the superiour force, the small force and the neutral percentages you can easily compute allow you to compute exactly how much points the superiour force gained.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I get what you are saying, but it took about five run throughs. My lips are tired, even!

Seriously, I am genuinely interested in how this works, so if anyone can provide some hard data or experience, it would be appreciated.

[MrSpkr]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GenSplatton:

How is a score comuted?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I always thought that the Governor or President had the power to commute things sentences . . .

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I would rather edit your post for run on sentences, grammar and spelling....

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Done. I hope it is better now.

I guess this thread was doomed right from start

Anyone did some testing? As I said, if you post percentages, I can do the calculation if you don't want to bother.

[ 06-05-2001: Message edited by: redwolf ]

[Herr Oberst]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by redwolf:

I guess this thread was doomed right from start

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not hardly. The thread can be commuted right up and until the moment that Madmatt locks it...

[Redwolf]

Exit scenarios, complicated stuff.

Units that are eligible for exit points have a certain value with regards for exit, in addition to the value they bring when k.o.'ed or captured like any other unit.

The amount of exit points is not constant, for sharpshooters and trucks it is cost * 2.7, for flamethrower teams and guns it is cost * 2.3.

I didn't test for more units so far, but I guess it depends on speed and/or transport class. The slower stuff shouldn't ruin the exiting player when he can't bring them over. Respectivly it is usually driven over the edge in transport which is not such a big deal. The purpose of this balancing without telling us about it seems to be questionable, though

Anyway, logic here is (for sharpshooter and truck):

- exited like it should: player gets (cost * 2.7) points

- not exited like it should: opponent gets (cost * 2.7) points

- killed: opponent gets (cost * (2.7 + 1.0)) points

- captured: opponent gets (cost * (2.7 + 2.0)) points

For flamethrower teams and trucks insert 2.3 instead of 2.7.

No further complications may arrive from units with crews. After knockout of the weapon the crew does not have "should exit for points" status. That would be really nasty for 81mm mortars which have 26 points value in the weapon, but 36 in the crew

It seems to be that such scenarios are impossible to play without this knowledge. You have to make straight calculations which unit you will engage in a battle with 1:1 chances to protect other units. Maybe newer manual editions have more infos? Otherwise I will start testing all units and build some nice exit scenarios.

[Murph]

Interesting thread. I have a question to add.

What happens in the case of a surrender by the adversary? Do you get maximum points, even if you hadn't gotten around to exiting? This is what I assume, but not sure.

I was playing the third battle in the "Axis mini-campaign". My company had to hold a bridge against a Polish assault, in a daring attempt to escape the closing Falaise pocket. I had to hold until turn 30 or so, when 8 trucks would appear, which I had to escort accross the bridge and off the map edge.

Well, I had one of those glorious games where everything went right, and I kicked some Polish butt. By the time the trucks came in, it was just a matter of driving. There were still 7 turns left, and I was maneuvering the column towards the bridge (and we all know how easy THAT is). All enemy troops were routed or dead, and I had armour and troops guarding the way out. Well, halfway down my drive, the enemy surrenders.

The AAR deemed it a complete Axis victory, 84-16, or something like that. It sounds fair to me, but how did it compute the points? Does it counts as "all accross and alive"?. Or do I get penalized for not making it?

Just a thought. What a game...

Murph

[CombinedArms]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Murph:

What happens in the case of a surrender by the adversary? Do you get maximum points, even if you hadn't gotten around to exiting? This is what I assume, but not sure.

Murph<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surrender happens when your opponent's morale level slips below %15. For that to happen, you have to have kicked some butt. My impression is that this would lead to maximum exit points (the manual isn't clear on this, but it stands to reason). The big plus is that you also get to count as "captured" any enemy units still on the board. Some may have fled off-board, so they don't count, but, since captured units count double, this gives you a big points boost in the final victory tally, esp. since you probably wouldn't have managed to actually kill all those guys anyway. Thus, I think it's always good to push your opponent to the point of surrender if you can.

[ 06-06-2001: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[CombinedArms]

Oops! Double post.

[ 06-06-2001: Message edited by: CombinedArms ]

[SurlyBen]

Been meaning to post this here for a while. I've seen several plain english explanations, but for the math inclined, here's a rough guide to CM scoring as I understand it. It doesn't say anything about exited units (whether from an exit scenario or not) and it probably overlooks other stuff too (for example a scenario designer can give one side bonus points), but in QBs I can usually tell what the final score will be to within a few percentage points by the late few turns of the fight.

pa = total points of allied casualties (allies captured count double their casualty value)

pg = total points of german casualties (germans captured cout double their casualty value)

f = total value of flags

fa = point value of flags controlled by allies

fg = point value of flags controlled by germans

a = allied score

g = german score

Flags are worth 300 points for the big ones, and 100 for the small ones.

All units are worth their cost in points(that is, if you only kill a regular sherman, pa will be 115 ), with the exception of arty spotters, which are worth 30 points, and possibly infantry casualties, which I haven't tested for exact values. That is, infantry may have a standard per casualty value (probably around 2 or 3 points) or it may vary by unit type. Captured units are worth double points.

SurlyBen

[Redwolf]

The formular is correct and also applies to exit scenarios except that "kill points" will include point you or the other side gets from "should exit" units.

See my post above for the value of crewmembers and squadmembers.

[Conscript Bagger]

You know, if they'd told me in junior high that one day I'd be using trigonometry for submarine games and algebra for CM, I would've paid a lot more attention

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SurlyBen:

Been meaning to post this here for a while. I've seen several plain english explanations, but for the math inclined, here's a rough guide to CM scoring as I understand it. It doesn't say anything about exited units (whether from an exit scenario or not) and it probably overlooks other stuff too (for example a scenario designer can give one side bonus points), but in QBs I can usually tell what the final score will be to within a few percentage points by the late few turns of the fight.

pa = total points of allied casualties (allies captured count double their casualty value)

pg = total points of german casualties (germans captured cout double their casualty value)

f = total value of flags

fa = point value of flags controlled by allies

fg = point value of flags controlled by germans

a = allied score

g = german score

Flags are worth 300 points for the big ones, and 100 for the small ones.

All units are worth their cost in points(that is, if you only kill a regular sherman, pa will be 115 ), with the exception of arty spotters, which are worth 30 points, and possibly infantry casualties, which I haven't tested for exact values. That is, infantry may have a standard per casualty value (probably around 2 or 3 points) or it may vary by unit type. Captured units are worth double points.

SurlyBen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is the point value of a 10 man unit that suffers 4 casualties?

[SurlyBen]

It could be a fraction of the unit cost, or each infantry casualty could have a standard point value (2 or 3 points probably) (modifed by unit experience or whether or not it is a crew)

I also don't know if you get full points for killing things like sharpshooters, or if taking out a mortar (or gun) and its crew gets you the points for the mortar PLUS the value of the crew. If it does, assaulting mortar formations would be a points bonanza.

I suppose someone could test for all of this, but it won't be me All I wanted to have was a rough way of calculating the score during a game.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sten:

Oh, much like everyboby else. By train or bus. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or alternatively... commuted to whom one may well ask? If it is always commuted then I'll never be able to win a game no matter how well I do!

Regards

Jim R.

[Redwolf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SurlyBen:

It could be a fraction of the unit cost, or each infantry casualty could have a standard point value (2 or 3 points probably) (modifed by unit experience or whether or not it is a crew)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(squad cost / squad members) * killed members. No difference between members of oine given squad, but difference between squads in price/member.

If a U.S. rifle owner looses 4 man, he pays less than a panzergrenadier owner loosing 4 men.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I also don't know if you get full points for killing things like sharpshooters, or if taking out a mortar (or gun) and its crew gets you the points for the mortar PLUS the value of the crew. If it does, assaulting mortar formations would be a points bonanza.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is. If you knock out a 81mm mortar and capture the whole crew, you get 26 + 6 * 6 * 2 points.

You shouldn't underestimate that mortars crews are capable of fighting, though, they are not broken and without ammo like vehicle crews. For point reasons, the owner still should withdraw them, but a head-on assault may fail.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I suppose someone could test for all of this, but it won't be me All I wanted to have was a rough way of calculating the score during a game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you use the procedure I have given above and save the scenario it isn't that much work.