Cauldron Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 Hy, Has someone got an address for the ASL section of CM, its off line . ta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 Hasbro issued a cease and desist some time ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSpkr Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Berlichtingen: Hasbro issued a cease and desist some time ago<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Were they complaining of using ASL maps/scenarios, or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellros Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 The gentleman who was running the site also did not have the time to keep it up. And this was at least 6 months or more ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrSpkr: Were they complaining of using ASL maps/scenarios, or what?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted August 16, 2001 Share Posted August 16, 2001 so have they asked us not to use the ASL scenarios for CM? i was about to dust off my old scenarios and give them a whirl on CM! does any old grog here know what the deal with that is? :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chad Harrison: so have they asked us not to use the ASL scenarios for CM? i was about to dust off my old scenarios and give them a whirl on CM! does any old grog here know what the deal with that is? :confused:<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think the only part of a scenario that would actually be copyrightable would be the briefings. But I'm not 100% on that. --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Harrison Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 so if i put it in without the briefing, and just use the TO&E/Order of battle and map, thats not copyrighted is it? becuase there are a lot of really fun battle in those dusty boxes. i guess theres one way to find out . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chad Harrison: so if i put it in without the briefing, and just use the TO&E/Order of battle and map, thats not copyrighted is it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't think the order of battle or map are legally copyrightable, if you translate them in the manner necessary to make them run in CM. The text of a briefing, OTOH is most probably protected. You might want to acknowledge the original designers, or if possible even contact them. But if it's just a question of some company that 'owns' the rights, and can afford sharp lawyers, I wouldn't see you as being under any moral obligation to them above and beyond the letter of the law. Of course if they harrass your provider with scary sounding letters you'll probably get shut down even if you're in the right. regards, --Rett [ 08-16-2001: Message edited by: CMplayer ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer: I don't think the order of battle or map are legally copyrightable, if you translate them in the manner necessary to make them run in CM. The text of a briefing, OTOH is most probably protected. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes they are. ASL maps are unique to ASL (with the exception of the historical moduals). The Orders of battle also as they are not historical by any stretch of the imagination. They are fully within their rights to disallow the use of ASL scenarios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PVLLVS MAXIMVS Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 Sounds like a fat load of quivering lawyer dookie to me. But thats just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gredeker Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 Hasbro wanted to use the SL/ASL name for their excellent computer Squad Leader game, and didn't want anyone to get confused, especially if a third party adaptation of existing ASL scenarios using a superior game system produced far superior results. [Quickly advances rearward and dives into his foxhole] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 reword the briefing and call it something else other than the name it had in ASL and then do not label the mission in the "ASL PACK" or anything to that effect. You should be alright then (but I am no lawyer) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gredeker Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 If you want to know exactly how far you can push things without getting into trouble, look at some of the recent materials put out by Critical Hit, like the 48-56 Arab-Israeli War module. Has a rockin' campaign game for the battle of Jerusalem in 48 - you too can try to blow up the Dome of the Rock! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 By the way, I have all the ASLCM scenarios that were at that site, and I will freely share them with anyone who wants them. I'm not making any money at it, and neither was that site. That site actually REVIVED my interest in ASL, until Hasbro pulled the plug. Bad Business on Hasbro's part. As a result of HASBRO's attitude, I'm not buying any ASL stuff forever. And Multi-Man Publishing can kiss my ass, too. Frank [ 08-17-2001: Message edited by: Franko ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Berlichtingen: Yes they are. ASL maps are unique to ASL (with the exception of the historical moduals). The Orders of battle also as they are not historical by any stretch of the imagination. They are fully within their rights to disallow the use of ASL scenarios<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm just not sure if that holds legally. I recently followed a debate on a similar subject in another gaming forum, and based on what some lawyers said there I gathered the following: The moves of a game of chess, for instance, are not protected, though they are certainly unique to that particular game and are the result of considerable creative effort on the parts of the players. Still you, I or anyone, can legally publish a collection of famous games, even by modern players. (At least as of a few years ago). The commentaries on the games, OTOH, are protected. But I'm not a lawyer, and laws and precedents can change... --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 Why bother with the question of "is it copyrightable or not"? Why bother copying someone else's work when the CM game designer is so flexible that you can make your own scenarios? If you do some good research and have a good imagination you can make your own historical scenarios that would beat the tar out of a scenario that was made by someone long ago. Why copy a static ASL map when you can create or much more accurate map with the map editor? Hasbro may want to be a prig about the scenarios but they are well within their right to be so since they do own the rights. No one can stop you from creating your own unique interpretation. If you insist on copying the ASL map layouts, you'll need to make enough changes to argue that it is an original work of art and it has to go well beyond a few superficial changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted August 17, 2001 Share Posted August 17, 2001 Ok, a note on copyright. I am, by training, a graphic designer, and copyright law was a reqired subject. If Hasbro does not protect its copyright, it can lose it. Simple solution... contact Man Publishing to ask for permission to convert the scenarios Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tanq_tonic Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 Being one of the "terrible" Intellectual Property attorneys, the answer is: if you made it up; and if you placed it in a tangible medium; you have a copyright. Information or facts are not copyrightable. However, ones "rendition" of them can be. So, 1) made up OOB for a game is protected; 2) made up maps are protected; 3) the rendition of a map from a historical map may be prohibited, based on the amount of copyrightable aspect taken from the original. Failure to send a cease and desist letter does not render a copyrightable unenforceable, per se. However, if you know of a possible violation and dont do anything for a long time, then the doctrines of estoppel, acquiescence, or laches may prevent you from enforcing the copyright in the particular circumstances. So, to be safe, shoot first and ask questions later. Hasbro probably sent a letter based on trademark, ie, using the ASL or Squad Leader name. On the other side, it is probably not efficient for them to chase anyone who makes a "mod" based on their game. They simply want to keep the bigger fish out of the aquarium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harold Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 Franko, I hope you reconsider your stance on MMP. If it wasn't for them ASL the boardgame would literally be dead. MMP is basically Hasbros eyes and ears on possible copyright infringement and if they don't follow through on that Hasbro will pull the plug on them and thus on ASL. They are between a rock and a hard place and are often unfairly lumped in with Hasbro. Though I have never personally met any of them they are just like you and I with regular day jobs and do this to keep the game and a few other titles alive in paper format. Well most have regular day jobs anyways Harold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalem Posted August 18, 2001 Share Posted August 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Harold: Franko, I hope you reconsider your stance on MMP. If it wasn't for them ASL the boardgame would literally be dead. MMP is basically Hasbros eyes and ears on possible copyright infringement and if they don't follow through on that Hasbro will pull the plug on them and thus on ASL. They are between a rock and a hard place and are often unfairly lumped in with Hasbro. Though I have never personally met any of them they are just like you and I with regular day jobs and do this to keep the game and a few other titles alive in paper format. Well most have regular day jobs anyways Harold<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What he said. MMP has revived ASL out of love for the game. Each new module is a great package and a gem. Give them a chance. -dale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Berlichtingen: Hasbro issued a cease and desist some time ago<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Where did you get this information from? Col Klotz never mentioned that (publicly anyway). All we know is that the Col took his site down - the official reason being that he was too busy with school. Did the Col e-mail you directly and let you know that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeT Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 ASL Veteran, well I personally got a letter from Col Klotz about this issue. He said he was expecting a letter but never said he received it. However he did need to spend more time at school and really for that reason he wanted to quit. I do miss the man, he was first off the mark in advertising my desert mod for CMBO and offered me much advise in converting ASL to CM. MikeT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlichtingen Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASL Veteran: Where did you get this information from? Col Klotz never mentioned that (publicly anyway). All we know is that the Col took his site down - the official reason being that he was too busy with school. Did the Col e-mail you directly and let you know that?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I had a rather lengthy e-mail conversation with Col. Klotz. Btw, the simple solution is to ask them for persission. If they grant it, cool (they very well may). They have to protect the copyright or they can lose the ability to protect it. I am not a fan of hasbro, but what they did is the smart thing to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMplayer Posted August 19, 2001 Share Posted August 19, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tanq_tonic: 1) made up OOB for a game is protected; 2) made up maps are protected; <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I understand that you know your stuff, but I have a hard time understanding how an OOB can be protected. Seriously, could any scenario designer out there say that no one, in any other WWII game, can ever again use some particular combination of troops and vehicles? In that case, I hereby take out a copyright on the use of the vanilla US rifle company. Anyone purchasing such a company, in any WWII sim, now or in the future, shall henceforth send 1 dollar to my home address (to be announced later) --Rett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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