ASL and CM

[Michael Dorosh]

The flap over ASL2CM was over the scanning of ASL mapboards and putting them on the site. Did anybody actually look at the site before entering this conversation? Col Klotz literally scanned the physical map boards and used them as artwork. That's an obvious no-no since Charlie Kibler and the other board artists were never credited, nor was permission granted for the Col to use them.

The appeal of playing ASL scenarios, Commisar, is that it brings back memories for those who grew up with SL, from the purple box through to ASL. Yes, the mapboards don't work well in CM, and many of the rules are not the same - but the best balanced games I've played have been based on SL scenarios.

Cauldron - I have several SL and ASL conversions at my British and Canadian CM websites listed below. Perhaps you will find one or two old favourites there - I've also found a lot of third party scenarios on the net that I've converted.

I've emailed the designers trying to get permission; most are school adresses and the designers have long since graduated. But where the scenario designer is known, I've given full credit.

I don't anticipate any problems along these lines since I have not used the ASL logo on any of the work. Think about it - if you have a historical website, and use a book as a reference to draw a diagram of a 1944 infantry battalion, you are not required to credit the author or the work, as the information is public knowledge.

If someone can cite some actual case histories here instead of conjecture, it would do us all a lot of good. Otherwise, these conversations are growing very tiresome, and remind me of the "good" kids in class getting freaked out because "teacher is coming" even though you're not doing anything wrong.

Enjoy the scenarios, Cauldron, and if you have any conversions featuring British or Canadian troops, I'd love to look them over with a view to posting them for others to play.

If anyone is really worried about the legality of creating SL conversions, then rewrite the briefings and rename the scenario. In my eye that is WORSE since you are simply rewriting someone else's work as your own. At least if you acknowledge it as an ASL scenario and credit the author, you are being a little bit honest.

[ 08-19-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer:

I understand that you know your stuff, but

I have a hard time understanding how

an OOB can be protected. Seriously,

could any scenario designer out there

say that no one, in any other WWII game,

can ever again use some particular

combination of troops and vehicles?

In that case, I hereby take out a copyright

on the use of the vanilla US rifle company.

Anyone purchasing such a company, in

any WWII sim, now or in the future, shall

henceforth send 1 dollar to my home

address (to be announced later)

--Rett<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The OOBs in ASL are seldom reflections of real OOBs. So, if you just copy the OOB in the scenario, you may well be in violation of copyright

[tanq_tonic]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer:

I understand that you know your stuff, but

I have a hard time understanding how

an OOB can be protected. Seriously,

could any scenario designer out there

say that no one, in any other WWII game,

can ever again use some particular

combination of troops and vehicles?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the "scenario", which, since it is embodied in tangible form, the protectable elements are the map and the oob, in conjunction with one another.

The map itself may embody another protection, apart from its use in the scenario, as that itself is embodied in tangible form.

I apologize for my not so specific description posted previously, but away from "the world" I tend not to be quite so precise. (I like to act like a normal human being, instead of one with fins, fangs, and scales...)

Hope this explains the distinction, (as I see it.)

[tanq_tonic]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

I don't anticipate any problems along these lines since I have not used the ASL logo on any of the work. Think about it - if you have a historical website, and use a book as a reference to draw a diagram of a 1944 infantry battalion, you are not required to credit the author or the work, as the information is public knowledge.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The logo is apart from the copyright aspects. Look it up.

Second, in using ASL scenario, you are NOT using a historical website as a base. You are using a copyrighted work. Thus your example and your practice differ widely.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

If someone can cite some actual case histories here instead of conjecture, it would do us all a lot of good. Otherwise, these conversations are growing very tiresome, and remind me of the "good" kids in class getting freaked out because "teacher is coming" even though you're not doing anything wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im sorry you dont take my word.... I do this sort of stuff for a living. I know my copyright and trademark law. As for "citing cases", try the BNA Intellectual Property Journal. They have a free trial. Sorry, I dont "look up cases" nor cite them on whim. But I do know my general principles, and remember vivid examples of what has gotten people into trouble. If you still want a "cite", I will be happy to do that at my normal hourly rate. (try looking up the cases on computer game scenarios, as, if i remember there are some excellent analogies to the present situation)

Im sorry you don't believe, but, that is your right. I do know that if someone approached me to take a case such as this, I would have the defendant for lunch....

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

If anyone is really worried about the legality of creating SL conversions, then rewrite the briefings and rename the scenario. In my eye that is WORSE since you are simply rewriting someone else's work as your own. At least if you acknowledge it as an ASL scenario and credit the author, you are being a little bit honest.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, wrong. you really should look up what bundle of rights are involved in copyright before you espouse what is legal or not. And you also keep getting the concepts of trademark and copyright mixed up. But, the best thing about this type of post (as with most home grown conceptions in the intellectual properties) is that the end result keeps me very busy..... Hmmm.... maybe I should go back and delete all my posts..... lol.

Anyway, all I ask, is that before pontificating on what the "proper" or "legal" means is, do your homework.

[SurlyBen]

Not surpisingly for someone who claims to be an intellectual property lawyer, tanq_tonic is right on the money. But dont take my word for it. Check out the US copyright office homepage. The section on copyright basics (right at the top of the page) provides lots of information in a fairly easy to read (ie non-legalese) format.

It specifically mentions maps as being copyrightable, FYI.

My understanding is that copyright law for european countries is generally even more favorable to the copyright holder. Not sure about other areas, but I'd bet that most countries in the world will have such info on the web.

For registered copyrights, the situation for people who infringe is fairly unpleasant... Statutory damages and paying of legal fees. I have little doubt that the ASL scenarios owned by Hasbro are registered.

Surlyben

[ 08-19-2001: Message edited by: SurlyBen ]

[Derfel]

As a long time friend of Col. Klotz maybe I should step in here and point out a few things:

1. The Col. did get a note from Hasbro saying that they understood he was running website with material that might be the property of Hasbro and that he should desist. No specifics were given and there was most certainly no mention of scanned maps.

2. All authors of original scenarios (both ASL and CMBO) and mapmakers were credited on the site.

3. While the Col. felt that Hasbro et al probably wouldn't/couldn't pursue the matter legally (what could they hope to gain from a sueing a private individual who hadn't made any money from this alleged breach of copyright?) their attitude rather pissed him off as he felt that he was doing them an, albeit small, favor by creating interest in the ASL material.

So, this in conjunction with an growing workload in his studies the Col. decided to leave the scene (but not the game, the b*stard beat me ragged just a few weeks back).

-Derfel

[patboivin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Commissar:

Why bother with the question of "is it copyrightable or not"? Why bother copying someone else's work when the CM game designer is so flexible that you can make your own scenarios?

[...]

Why copy a static ASL map when you can create or much more accurate map with the map editor? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nostalgia. For old people like me (35 years old, w-a-y past middle age), nostalgia is a cozy refuge.

Same reason some people are buying computer games that are AD&D lookalikes...

[Jager]

Why don't you just go around the copyright stuff by not copying the original maps, OOB and briefings exactly?

If it is not exactly the same then you do not, imho, go against the copyright. You are just creating something similar. Just tell people that you got inspired by this or that ASL scenario or it's similar to it, but it is not the ASL scenario, as everyone can see after carefull studying: See those buildings are in different place or do not exist in the ASL, that road there does not go like this in the ASL map and the germans did not have the sharpshooter in the ASL scenario.

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Harold:

Though I have never personally met any of them they are just like you and I with regular day jobs and do this to keep the game and a few other titles alive in paper format. Well most have regular day jobs anyways

Harold<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've "met" each and everyone of them. They will screw you like never before, and are not fair, and they in fact have infringed on copyrights themselves. But that's another story, and this is CM, not the ASL mailing list.

[tanq_tonic]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jager:

Why don't you just go around the copyright stuff by not copying the original maps, OOB and briefings exactly?

If it is not exactly the same then you do not, imho, go against the copyright. You are just creating something similar. Just tell people that you got inspired by this or that ASL scenario or it's similar to it, but it is not the ASL scenario, as everyone can see after carefull studying: See those buildings are in different place or do not exist in the ASL, that road there does not go like this in the ASL map and the germans did not have the sharpshooter in the ASL scenario.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, it does violate copyright. If you can only ascertain differences after a "careful study", you are probably violative of a copyright in the work. Look up the definition of a "derivative work." That one of the points I've been trying to make all thread.