Leonidas Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 It's a common scene in CM: Two tanks come into view of each other. The target line pops up big and red. Both tanks take aim and fire. The shells pass in midair. Both tanks hit, and both are knocked out. Or maybe both miss their first shot, and then kill each other on the second shot. Does this bother anyone else? It seems to me that a Simultaneous Double Kill with shells passing in mid-air would be extremely rare in real life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever Babra Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 One does have to wonder what would happen to the trajectory of a shell as it passed another. But I'm a tank slut. It doesn't bother me. ------------------ Quo fas et gloria ducunt Stereotypes The Un-Rant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankDawg Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 It does happen too often. Atleast once a game. Seems pretty amazing. ------------------ Jeff Newell TankDawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Head Mahone Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 It hardly ever happens to me. Don't get me wrong I've seen it happen, but only once or twice. I've had the game for awhile too. -Head ------------------ "I don't need my junkie friends all knockin' at my door. I just wanna do an old time waltz with a buxom Irish whore!" -Shane MacGowan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Star Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 I see this happen fairly often. Probably unrealistic, but I still think it is cool. The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat at the same time! I suspect that the game model fires shots no more often than once per second, thus causing the shells being being fired and in the air at exactly the same time in many cases. Not a huge problem and no need for a fix IMHO. ------------------ "Act after having made assessments. The one who first knows the measures of far and near wins - this the rule of armed struggle." Sun Tzu - The Art of War Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 Originally posted by North Star: I see this happen fairly often. Probably unrealistic, but I still think it is cool. The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat at the same time! I suspect that the game model fires shots no more often than once per second, thus causing the shells being being fired and in the air at exactly the same time in many cases. Not a huge problem and no need for a fix IMHO. I agree; I don't suppose there's any way of knowing how often this happened IRL, but with tank shells in flight taking EDIT more time than the reaction time of a gunner to press the firing switch...I will try and dig out a quote of mine about a US tank gunner rounding a corner, seeing an armoured car, and pumping two or three fast rounds into it before realizing it was British. The Brits were unharmed, and congratulated the gunner on his quick reflexes. This ain't a bug if you ask me, its a feature - it shows that the shells are being more accurately modelled than a simple "tank A killed tank B so tank B's shell is now irrelevant". [This message has been edited by Michael Dorosh (edited 03-02-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 Huh? With average velocities of 750m/s for the German guns and sub 700m/s for the American 75mm I would think this could happen more often then you think. Think about it... If a Sherman and PzIV are squaring off at 1200 meters then it would take on average a little more than 1.5 seconds for the shells to reach each other. I would think that human reaction times are a little better than 1.5 seconds. In fact IIRC typical human reaction times are in the 1/5th of the second area. Jeff ------------------ When nuclear weapons are frozen then only freezers will have nuclear weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADAman Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 I lost Wittmann that way one game. With the AI basically starting the clock on both gunners at the same time (not always but certainly some of the time in "meeting" situations), this is one of those situations where you hope the other guy's tank is more valuable than your own. I don't remember that being the case with Wittmann... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: I will try and dig out a quote of mine about a US tank gunner rounding a corner, seeing an armoured car, and pumping two or three fast rounds into it before realizing it was British. The Brits were unharmed, and congratulated the gunner on his quick reflexes. but terrible aim . . . They then crawled back into the unharmed armored car and drove away? ------------------ Check out http://www.geocities.com/funfacts2001/ or http://hyperion.spaceports.com/~funfacts/ or http://www.britwar.co.uk/members/FunFacts/ for military documents written during WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 Originally posted by jshandorf: Huh? With average velocities of 750m/s for the German guns and sub 700m/s for the American 75mm I would think this could happen more often then you think. Think about it... If a Sherman and PzIV are squaring off at 1200 meters then it would take on average a little more than 1.5 seconds for the shells to reach each other. I would think that human reaction times are a little better than 1.5 seconds. In fact IIRC typical human reaction times are in the 1/5th of the second area. Jeff Exactly - doh. I meant to say "more time" vice "less time".....We agree. Sorry for the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 Originally posted by Jasper: but terrible aim . . . They then crawled back into the unharmed armored car and drove away? Armored car was a wreck - the crew was ok. Sorry for the confusion again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Offwhite Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: The Brits were unharmed, and congratulated the gunner on his quick reflexes. That's a surprise - All quips about gentlemanly behavior and stiff upper lips aside, I doubt I'd be so well-disposed toward the guy who just shot up my ride! ------------------ Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap - Rudyard Kipling, "Tommy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 I agree with Jeff, I'm sure this was (and perhaps still is) quite possible and probably happened fairly often. It might still, for that matter. So why don't we hear more about it in memoirs? Probably due to lack of survivors Opposing tanks did in fact aim at each other in real life. Look how many you see with holes in the front of the turret. Out of all such kills, I'm sure there were quite a few where the tanks fired close enough to simultaneously to kill each other instead of just one dying. BTW, my favorite simultaneous kill in CM was a Tiger I vs. an M4A3(105). The Sherman fired first by a considerable margin but because its shell is so slow, the faster 88 round killed the Sherman before its own round reached the Tiger ------------------ -Bullethead In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there is bacteria. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ksak Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 I don't think that it's uncommon in CM. Watch closely and you can see the rounds travelling from gun to target for each AFV. Happened to me yesterday. When you consider that each is acting completely independent of the other, the mutual kills are just normal events that happen very close together in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnin' Ern Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 I've seen double kills a few times. Not to an excess. Several times I've seen armor get hit twice almost simultaneously from different guns. That is cool! Like both at guns let fly at the same time at the same bad guy, torching his junk. "Take that! Sit down and shut up!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 2, 2001 Share Posted March 2, 2001 Originally posted by Burnin' Ern: I've seen double kills a few times. Not to an excess. Several times I've seen armor get hit twice almost simultaneously from different guns. That is cool! Like both at guns let fly at the same time at the same bad guy, torching his junk. "Take that! Sit down and shut up!" I had a Marder get taken out by a PIAT, but when I looked at the PIAT's Kills screen, it was blank. I went back and realized a Sherman was firing his .50 at the side armour. The Marder blew up from the .50 rounds at the same instant the PIAT bomb landed. I was going to email and complain about a bug, thinking my PIAT guy wuz robbed! ------------------ CANUCK: Clothing, Equipping and Employing the Canadian Soldier in Combat Mission Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalton Posted March 3, 2001 Share Posted March 3, 2001 Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: I had a Marder get taken out by a PIAT, but when I looked at the PIAT's Kills screen, it was blank. I went back and realized a Sherman was firing his .50 at the side armour. The Marder blew up from the .50 rounds at the same instant the PIAT bomb landed. The worst (best?) case of overkill I've seen is what my Canadians did to a MkIV. The MkIV drove through the ambush marker of a PIAT team (who came out of hiding) and traveled close to the PIAT team (in hiding) of another platoon. Before either team could target the tank and shoot, the MkIV rolled into the LOS of a 6 lb gun... Result: Both sides and the front penetrated! (The second PIAT team got the kill.) ...Dalton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PD Posted March 3, 2001 Share Posted March 3, 2001 Originally posted by Offwhite: That's a surprise - All quips about gentlemanly behavior and stiff upper lips aside, I doubt I'd be so well-disposed toward the guy who just shot up my ride! Well, if a tank that put three shots through my car was still in front of me, I'd be polite too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvet Posted March 3, 2001 Share Posted March 3, 2001 Originally posted by PD: Well, if a tank that put three shots through my car was still in front of me, I'd be polite too LOL, good point! ------------------ Craiger All your victory flag are belong to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted March 3, 2001 Share Posted March 3, 2001 Think about it this, too - your recce car gets shot up, you are under orders to move back to friendly lines when this happens (ie you don't have to swan about trying to draw fire or find the enemy)....some crews would be a little thankful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted March 3, 2001 Share Posted March 3, 2001 Could the seemingly high number of simultaneous kills be attributed to the fact that many of our games tend to be even affairs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted March 3, 2001 Share Posted March 3, 2001 Maybe the crew really REALLY hated that d*mn car. One of the springs was broke, the engine would backfire occasionally - giving everyone a heart attack, fuel would drip on the drivers feet. They'd complained about it for weeks, but as long as it ran nothing would be done. Now they'll get a brand new car - right out of the factory. And best of all: IT'S NOT THEIR FAULT! I'd be a little worried about that tank gunner though - sounds like he's dangerous to friend and foe alike! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FriendlyFire Posted March 3, 2001 Share Posted March 3, 2001 Simultaneous kills probably occur more often in CM than in "real life" because the game engine seems to model tanks as point sources for line-of-sight and shooting purposes. That is, if tank A can see and shoot at tank B, tank B can see and shoot at tank A - this doesn't mean that they WILL see each other, but they CAN. In real life, you'd get more situations where A can see enough of B to shoot at (i.e. the back of B's hull), but B has no chance of ever seeing A if he doesn't move. In CM, given equal-experience crews in identical condition (i.e. not shocked, buttoned, or shooting at something else), there's a pretty good likelihood that two tanks rounding a corner will see each other at exactly the same moment. Then it's just down to turret rotation and ROF as to how long till they get their first shots off. Also, I TRY for double and triple over-kills. That indicates that an ambush worked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper Posted March 3, 2001 Share Posted March 3, 2001 Just for once, in a recent QB PBEM, I decided to take a Jagdpanther. I don't usually take an armoured 88, (Other than Nashorn, I never had) but thought I might try it out to see how it worked. Unbeknownst to me, my opposition decided to see how good a Super Pershing was. First time he ever tried it out. About turn 5, both of us start advancing the heavy armor. The two see each other. My JP was set to halt on a ridge, he kept advancing. (JP is Vet, M26 was Reg). I start bouncing shells off the front of the tank. At least four 88s ricoched. I wasn't looking at this kindly. However, a check of the stats indicated that it was likely a 90mm round would bounce off the JP's front as well. (Range was akin to 600m) Next turn, an SP 37mm I brought along to protect the JP from marauding M8s gets into the act. Bounces more shells off the front of the M26. Plus another 88. Finally the M26 decides to shoot. First round misses.. I ping off his armour. His second round knocks me out. All hope is lost. The JP did get a final shot off, but considering how many rounds have bounced, it's hopeless. The M26 will maraud around my units, and only a lucky 75mm shot might reduce the carnage... CLANG.... Front upper hull penetration, knocked out... Wha?! Now why the hell didn't that happen earlier? <sigh> Both of us concluded 'Right, that's the first, and last time I try -that- vehicle out' NTM ------------------ The difference between infantrymen and cavalrymen is that cavalrymen get to die faster, for we ride into battle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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