Atlas Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 IMHO, there are too many of you who scream "gamey" when your gilded dreams of what CM should be are shattered by contact with a historically unlikely enemy unit or mix of enemy units (e.g. King Tiger, Puma, Veteran Volkstrum.) GET OVER IT! CM IS A GAME, PEOPLE! If you are looking for a perfect historical simulation of WWII, you will not find it anywhere! You are far more likely to discover a time-machine, warp back to 1944 and charge a German machine gun on Omaha Beach than you are to capture every aspect and feel of WWII in a computer game. I worry that people actually think that by moving blips of light around on a computer screen that they have suddenly communed with the bloodiest war in the history of the world. If you do not want "gamey", go to the Holocaust Museum in LA or Washington, D.C.; read a first hand account of the suffering in Leningrad; or talk to one the thousands of US veterans still alive that stood in harm's way. For the sake of sanity and reason, do not play through a half-round of CM (the best war GAME ever made) and then, when you discover that you are getting your arse handed to you by a Churchill/Pershing combination, scream "gamey." Such indignation is not enlightened. If you insist on selecting unit mixes that may have had higher historical probability, fine. Let your opponent know before you both select units that you want to play the GAME that way. When you scream "gamey" it tells your opponent one or two things: A. You are looking for an excuse for your immanent loss or B. You are not smart enough to realize that you are playing a computer GAME. Rant off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeski Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 I'd like to give a shout out to all my Homey's back in cell block C. Hi Mom! ------------------ "If you're in a war, instead of throwing a hand grenade at the enemy, throw one of those small pumpkins. Maybe it'll make everyone think how stupid war is, and while they are thinking, you can throw a real grenade at them." - Jack Handey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 Isn't this thread the equivalent of chasing a burgular into a crowded street, getting tired, then pulling out a gun and shooting everyone in the street? I can clarify if need be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzer Leader Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 Food for thought: Its better someone shouting "Gamey!" than shouting "Too Real!" ...That could get ugly... ------------------ And King Xerxes looked to King Leonidas and spoke. "Our Archers will rain arrows down upon you to blot out the sun." And King Leonidas replied: "Then we will fight in the shade." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 CM is too real! ------------------ russellmz, Self-Proclaimed Keeper for Life of the Sacred Unofficial FAQ. "They had their chance- they have not lead!" - GW Bush "They had mechanical pencils- they have not...lead?" - Jon Stewart on The Daily Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 Hi Mom indeed. CM is a different product to everyone who plays it; to some a game, to some a means to a simulation. Arguing about it, shouting, telling people to get a life or otherwise be insulting because they do not share your outlook is just plain stupid. Atlas, you are no better than the people you are deriding. Not only can I not believe I'm wasting my own time to respond, I can't believe you wasted your time to share this epiphany of yours with us. Let us all proceed with our lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoAttacker Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 Gamey or Not to Be? that is the Question? Well I have a life and I chose to play opponents that are not gamey or that are gamey it does not matter. All I know it is fun to play, and for me it is more fun to design, so with that said as previously mentioned, lets get back to the game, gamey or not, and have fun! ------------------ "Victory smiles upon those who anticipate the changes in the character of war, not upon those who wait to adapt themselves after they occur." General Guilio Douhet 1920 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karch Posted February 23, 2001 Share Posted February 23, 2001 I like them all. I have a couple games that we specifically agreed to obscene ahistorical units. I play historical scenarios I also have a few QBs where we do our best to pick accurate OOBs and keep views to level 1 or 2 and not too much viewing from the opponent's side. Makes for a very different game. They all have their place. No right or wrongs. Just what you enjoy... SO GO ENJOY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas Posted February 24, 2001 Author Share Posted February 24, 2001 "Isn't this thread the equivalent of chasing a burgular into a crowded street, getting tired, then pulling out a gun and shooting everyone in the street? I can clarify if need be!" * Lol! I did not mean to imply "everyone". I meant to imply "too many." But I think your response is entertaining. "Hi Mom indeed. CM is a different product to everyone who plays it; to some a game, to some a means to a simulation. Arguing about it, shouting, telling people to get a life or otherwise be insulting because they do not share your outlook is just plain stupid. Atlas, you are no better than the people you are deriding. Not only can I not believe I'm wasting my own time to respond, I can't believe you wasted your time to share this epiphany of yours with us. Let us all proceed with our lives." * Michael, I see my post has struck a nerve. (-: LOL. BTW, what does "proceed with our lives" exactly mean to you? Is CM your life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlas Posted February 24, 2001 Author Share Posted February 24, 2001 This "bump" is for Dorosh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Originally posted by karch: I like them all. I have a couple games that we specifically agreed to obscene ahistorical units. I play historical scenarios I also have a few QBs where we do our best to pick accurate OOBs and keep views to level 1 or 2 and not too much viewing from the opponent's side. Makes for a very different game. They all have their place. No right or wrongs. Just what you enjoy... SO GO ENJOY! How obscene is obscene? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Col Deadmarsh Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 "Gamey is good." Didn't Gordon Gecko say that too? ------------------ Youth is wasted on the young. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamstersss Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Actually Panzer, it was not Leonidas who spoke that line but rather some guy who's name eludes me right now but begins with a 'D'. And Xerxes never saw Leonidas until his body was brought to him and chopped into bits. As to the gamey debate, keep in mind that there are enough pieces of entertainment software that try to be nothing but visceral entertainment, we're looking for something a bit more realistic. ------------------ Fionn has his rule of 76, I have mine. Mine is much simpler, I get to buy whatever I want ... you get 76 points. -Joe Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MantaRay Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 I still don't know how people can afford to buy "gamey" force makeups. Wish I had that cheat code. ------------------ When asked, "How many moves do you see ahead?", CAPABLANCA replied: "One move - the best one." Click now for shelter from the Peng thread New Site of the PLA:Rugged Defense Group Ladder The Red Army Mirror Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutPL Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Thanks for clarifying your position Atlas, you just made my "dont ever play this guy, he doesnt understand the true potential of CM" list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Gamey schmamey, it can all be avoided in the first place by talking with your potential opponent prior to getting all excited and flying off and sending some setup file, or accepting a challenge sight unseen. If you want to play with the big toys, then you both agree to beforehand, if not then you use Fionn Kelly's "Short 75" rule posted at Rugged Defense http://www.rugged-defense.nl/cm/Fionn3.htm. And if the two can't agree, then you don't play that person. Problem solved! No surprises, no claim to gamey, no whining afterwards. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 02-24-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Said this, from the 1st time ppl tried to get BTS to police their PBEM games for them. Just actualy speak to your opponet & discuss the force structure etc; before hand, it ends all these silly 'gamey'/'Fantasy'/ etc, etc, etc, purchases etc. Regards, John Waters ------------------ "We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field". Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Originally posted by Atlas: IMHO, there are too many of you who scream "gamey" when your gilded dreams of what CM should be are shattered by contact with a historically unlikely enemy unit or mix of enemy units (e.g. King Tiger, Puma, Veteran Volkstrum.) GET OVER IT! CM IS A GAME, PEOPLE! From your comments, I'll place money on the proposition that you don't understand what 'gamey' means, in the context of this game (as expressed by many of the non-gamey proponents). I think you are confusing 'ahistorical' with 'gamey'. Big difference, and I wonder if there are that many grogs out there that even have a gripe against ahistorical force set-ups. Gamey in the context of these discussions does NOT refer to ahistorical force mixes. It refers to taking advantage of some fluke in the game code that could not be reproduced in real life no matter how hard you tried. An example is absolute spotting. Another was the classic 'Jeep Rush' (which has been fixed, by reprogramming the accuracy of fire from fast moving wheeled vehicles, along with their greatly reduced spotting ability). Since you are most likely confusing these two issues, you might want to reevaluate your position - you're not the first to confuse the issue in any case. BTW: Hi Mom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 As the self-proclaimed Pope and Chief Inquisitor of the One And Only Church of Historical CMBO Play™, motto - 'You boast, I roast', I can not stay quiet on this topic. Hallo Mutti! ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Well, Atlas does have a valid point, at least by implication: namely, that a number of the people on this forum who prefer to play CM with forces and tactics that they perceive to be historically accurate have a tendency to disrespect or denigrate alternate viewpoints on the matter. It's quite easy to enjoy the tactical possibilities of CM regardless of historical unit selection or the application of tactics purportedly drawn from history. No shame in that. And it is abundantly clear that CM is a game or entertainment, albeit one based on historical research; regardless, it is an abstract oversimplification of the real world, just like any simulation is by definition. ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. "90% of the crucial decisions in this business are made by idiots who don't even play games." Cliff Bleszinski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Originally posted by Gremlin: Well, Atlas does have a valid point, at least by implication: namely, that a number of the people on this forum who prefer to play CM with forces and tactics that they perceive to be historically accurate have a tendency to disrespect or denigrate alternate viewpoints on the matter. Honestly I do not see this at all. On the other hand I regularly see posts like this, ie "people who want to play historically are whiny bastards." Personally I don't care how other people like to play, to each his own. This is why you clarify what sort of game you're looking to play with the guy before you play him. ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mannheim Tanker Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Originally posted by Chupacabra: Honestly I do not see this at all. On the other hand I regularly see posts like this, ie "people who want to play historically are whiny bastards." Exactly. An overwhelming majority of the posts on the 'gamey' topic are by those slamming players that prefer to play a game that obeys the rules of physics. I've also noticed that a lot of these same posters are the people that can't distinguish between 'ahistorical' setups and gamey play. I for one have no problem with people playing a setup of Panthers vs Jeeps if they so wish! Its the players that ask us all to play like that and then slam us for not wanting to play along that irk me. Very few people, Gremlin, have denigrated any player for choosing to play gamey games...more like the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted February 24, 2001 Share Posted February 24, 2001 Very few people, Gremlin, have denigrated any player for choosing to play gamey games...more like the other way around. I didn't say "gamey," and I'm one of the people who does distinguish between "gamey" and "ahistorical." For the record, the former I dislike, since it smacks of ungentlemanly behavior, while the latter is fine by me as long as both parties discuss the parameters of the match before it starts. Anyway, I've read these forums long enough to have seen all kinds of views, including those of a number of people who arrogantly dimiss, at least somewhat on the sly, the views I mentioned. ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. "90% of the crucial decisions in this business are made by idiots who don't even play games." Cliff Bleszinski [This message has been edited by Gremlin (edited 02-24-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 Who's disintegrating the players? Come at me wiff yer gameyness, my Panzers will teach ya's about disintegration. Zactly John Waters, I dunno how many problems I saw with AHIKS, and now PC gaming where for the simple lack of talking to one another someone gets all bent over a perceived wrong of some sort. Just talk to tha bastages! Hey John man, when ya gonna come down off yer pedistal and join a ladder so's we can play a rated game, you son of an Opel-Blitz you. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 02-24-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JunoReactor Posted February 25, 2001 Share Posted February 25, 2001 I think "gamey" detracts from the CM experience. Not being "gamey" is, for me, where CM shines. While it is just a collection of mathematical functions that interact with each other, these rules are so perfectly melded into the game engine that they are not readily visible. This allows the player to suspend his disbelief and begin to think not like a mathematician but like a commander. Yet, there are some things that cannot be abstracted on computer either for utility or impossiblity. Looking deep enough, you can see mathematics in action and if you choose to do so, these mathematics become your basic units to replace that battered Tiger which you pray will fire the first shot or that platoon which is running through an artillery barrage to take cover. Similarly, choosing the mathematically "best" units to fit your 600 points detracts from your enjoyment of things by making you realize further that this is, after all, nothing but a computer game. This is a personal choice, but you should realize that your opponent will also see those units. So, at least try to understand why some people prefer to play without gamey elements in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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