markshot Posted October 31, 2001 Share Posted October 31, 2001 NOTE: This question will be cross posted on both the Steel Beasts and Battle Front forums. Steel Beasts has conditioned me to think of tanks acting in platoons. Yet, when I look at Combat Mission unlike squads (which model 9-12 soldiers), tanks are modeled as individual units; not platoon abstractions. Were tank tactics different in WWII? One of the key differences in Combat Mission between American and German tanks seems to be the American tanks have faster turret rotation. This translates into being able to beat German tanks to the draw when the two sides are not fighting from prepared positions. If German tanks operated as platoons, like they do in Steel Beasts, this American advantage would seem to be somewhat neutralized. Since each German wingmen would scan a different area of the battlespace, and the platoon as a who would be prepared to fire on a number of different axis on short notice. So, why does Combat Mission treat tanks as individual units? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted October 31, 2001 Share Posted October 31, 2001 "So, why does Combat Mission treat tanks as individual units?" Like the board game Tobruk, thats the way the designers wanted it. They wanted to design a game that would simulate WWII post D-Day combat at the scale of the single vehicle. Tank platoons and tank platoon battles can be, and are simulated in CMBO Try Vengance or Victory a battelion level Meeting Engagement with infantry and what you could call "tank platoons" Now that's ONE helluva a scenario for a tank battle. -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hellfish Posted October 31, 2001 Share Posted October 31, 2001 In CMBB, it appears as though AFVs will now appear in platoons, with associated C&C benefits of having a leader. They will cease being individual units and function as a team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 31, 2001 Share Posted October 31, 2001 The game's scale is so that you control individual tanks, but nobody prevents you from moving four or five individual tanks as a platoon. That doesn't say anything about how you direct your individual tanks, and as a matter of fact I have substancial success in using platoons of CMBO tanks, over players who prefer spreaded out SP guns and TDs. You seem confused about the amount of micromanagement allowed and how much of that is better spent in commands that would result in movement very silimar to a whole-platoon command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markshot Posted October 31, 2001 Author Share Posted October 31, 2001 What I am saying is from what I learned from Steel Beasts and reading some armor materials. Four tanks moving individually is not the same as four tanks moving in a platoon formation. The four tanks moving in a platoon formation depending on their orders and configuration will be in much better shape to deal with a sudden attack from an unexpected axis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Johnson-- Posted October 31, 2001 Share Posted October 31, 2001 You should see some of my battles. I've got Panzers being used in platoon, battalion, brigade, and divisional strength. Moving in a giant wedge just waiting for someone to mess with them. Got one with the whole paper strength of the 503 scwhere, june 44. 21st Panzer 44. My Prokorovka scenario has a hefty chunk of the 2nd SS Panzer korps with Grossdutshland division. Of course when I have lots of tanks, I got lots of AT guns too. Nothing like riding on the back of a Panther as 40 tanks crest a hill as a group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted October 31, 2001 Share Posted October 31, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by markshot: What I am saying is from what I learned from Steel Beasts and reading some armor materials. Four tanks moving individually is not the same as four tanks moving in a platoon formation. The four tanks moving in a platoon formation depending on their orders and configuration will be in much better shape to deal with a sudden attack from an unexpected axis.<hr></blockquote> And that is exactly what it is in CMBO. That is what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morgan Posted October 31, 2001 Share Posted October 31, 2001 In Steel Panthers World at War, tanks ARE part of a platoon (or troop)and there are drastic penalties for individuals getting out of command from the higher formation commander. In CMBO (the West) all tanks on both sides are equipped with radios, which makes command and control much, much easier, which probably answers the question of why tanks are treated as individuals. However in CMBB (the East) most Russian formations were not equipped with radios, particularly in the early years of the war. This means that retaining command of your troop or platoon depends on the commander being line of sight of his subordinates. This (as I can well testify) makes life a lot harder and results in far less flexability. I am sure that I remember reading that CMBB is going to simulate this. By the way, I always use my tanks in troop formations in CMBO. Fire and manouvre, one foot always on the ground is the name of the game. It makes your armour infinitely more effective and gives them more chance of prevailing - AND SURVIVING. The latter point applies particularly to Pz IV's. Interestingly, there is no troop commander modelled in CMBO and consequently no penalty when the troop commander is knocked out!! I would contend that there should be - what does anyone else think? Regards, Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 31, 2001 Share Posted October 31, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by markshot: What I am saying is from what I learned from Steel Beasts and reading some armor materials. Four tanks moving individually is not the same as four tanks moving in a platoon formation. The four tanks moving in a platoon formation depending on their orders and configuration will be in much better shape to deal with a sudden attack from an unexpected axis.<hr></blockquote> Agreed. And this is what I do in CM. A lone tank on the battlefield had either play pretty cautiously or have its life insurance paid up. A lone tank trying to duke it out with another tank or AT gun is likely to turn into a pretty bonfire, but two or four or six stand a much better chance of dispatching the enemy without suffering casualties of their own. The kind of group maneuvers now possible in CM are somewhat unsophisticated since tanks not presently engaging an enemy travel with their guns trained straight ahead. In reality, each vehicle would have its gun trained out toward some piece of terrain from which trouble could well be anticipated. This would offset the slow turrets of some tanks to a degree. Also, there is at present no prohibition against firing through a friendly unit, and no consequence of doing so. In real life, this was a real problem. Units were assigned sectors to cover and tried to be aware of where friendly units were. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted October 31, 2001 Share Posted October 31, 2001 There's been a lot of grousing about the AI in CBBO not being coordinated enough. In CMBO your armor's platoon level organization is of course YOUR responsibility (being their CO), while the AI is dependant on the cleverness of the scenario designer. If you want AI tanks to APPEAR to work as a team it takes a LOT of fine-tuning of your scenario. Once you get into the big 50-60 turn scenarios the only thing coordinating the AI's tanks is the constraints of the terrain map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperTed Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by fytinghellfish: In CMBB, it appears as though AFVs will now appear in platoons, with associated C&C benefits of having a leader...<hr></blockquote> Yes... <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by fytinghellfish: They will cease being individual units and function as a team.<hr></blockquote> ...and no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 Everyone has missed the point entirely. A tank platoon moving in formation will assign arcs to individual tanks, with guns pointed in that direction, to instantly cover threats from those areas. This does not happen in CM - all gun barrels seem to be pointed forward until a threat is discovered. Four tanks moving at the same direction at the same time is NOT a platoon formation, sorry, guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Everyone has missed the point entirely. A tank platoon moving in formation will assign arcs to individual tanks, with guns pointed in that direction, to instantly cover threats from those areas. This does not happen in CM - all gun barrels seem to be pointed forward until a threat is discovered.<hr></blockquote> :confused: I posted: <blockquote>quote:</font><hr>The kind of group maneuvers now possible in CM are somewhat unsophisticated since tanks not presently engaging an enemy travel with their guns trained straight ahead. In reality, each vehicle would have its gun trained out toward some piece of terrain from which trouble could well be anticipated. This would offset the slow turrets of some tanks to a degree....Units [i.e., in this case individual tanks] were assigned sectors to cover...<hr></blockquote> Didn't you read that, Michael? I'm brokenhearted. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markshot Posted November 1, 2001 Author Share Posted November 1, 2001 This is the cross post on the Steel Beast forum if anyone is interested (posts sort from newest to oldest): http://steelbeasts.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000920.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Kearney Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 Perhaps the covered arc command in CMBB will be able to be used with moving AFVs?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peaveyyyyyyyy Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 Henry, these guys are just the best. They are not Gods. having tank Platoon HQ's is a cool thing to do. Taking it to having covered arcs when moving, while arguably more realistic, means that either : (1)some other more imporatnat thing won't be covered, or (2) you can have CMBB in the spring of 2008! I am all for the first choice here. I've found myself complaining about CM many times, but I've always been able to say: " Well, if I'm moaning about something as obscure as THAT, then it must be a totally superb game." Maybe one for CMBC (Combat Mission, Beyond Carping") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
russellmz Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 i THINK that having your tank mg area target something that will be out of sight in a few sec will make yr turrent point in the direction you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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