White phosphorus

[Wilhammer]

b. Recommend that White Phosphorous & Colored Smoke be made available at Ammunition Supply Points. It has been proven that WP has been invaluable as an offensive weapon. Also colored smoke is most easily picked up by air observation and therefore should be used almost exclusively by light artillery for marking air targets.

ROBERT C. McCABE,

Lt. Col. 419th Armd FA Bn.,

Commanding

Quoted from this:

http://www.419th.com/mccabe.html

[Harry Yeide]

AARs indicate that US tank crews engaged in infantry support used WP heavily. It was a favored means, for example, for clearing out houses that the Germans had fortified. In one interesting case, tankers assaulting the forts holding out around Metz after the city had fallen pumped hundreds of rounds of French-made WP through the embrasures daily until the defenders gave up, many suffering from burns. Marvin Jensen claims in Strike Swiftly! that the 70th Tank Battalion received orders to stop using WP rounds against living targets because the Germans had claimed this was a "chemical weapon" under the international rules of war. I have not found any reference to such an order in official records, however. Cheers.

[ 09-02-2001: Message edited by: Harry Yeide ]

[Dirtweasle]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

I forget BTS' stand on this. They said that infantry WP grenades werent common and the tank/arty use was not different enough than regular smoke?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's about right to make a long story short, (not that I agree with it). I think they said that anecdotal evidence not withstanding they did'nt believe it was commonly used. Maybe it's a game issue, on how to model a perisitant effect like phosphorus burning... it would have a simaler look as smoke and have to burn and do damage for a period of time. Might be tricky to model in the game.

[gunnergoz]

I'm not so sure that WP would be that difficult to model...in the end, it has a blast effect, fire effect and smoke...what's the big deal? Play with different values until historical effects seem to be reasonably duplicated.

[Fishu]

bit off topic but has anyone tried AJ-2 Casettes in IL-2?

Just that could those be WP weapons?

Those makes small explosion and then glows smoke for while.

[Dirtweasle]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gunnergoz:

I'm not so sure that WP would be that difficult to model...in the end, it has a blast effect, fire effect and smoke...what's the big deal?...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's damage has a persistent nature maybe? Nothing else in the game has the potetial to cause damage for some + amount of time.

[Username]

I remember BTS said that it wouldnt be that hard to model.

Its major effect, smoke, should be quicker in appearing than typical smoke shells. It should also be shorter in duration than a smoke shell. Its 'blast' effect would depend on the cover of the unit. It would also have a good chance of burning terrain and starting fires.

I doubt its a issue in CMBB.

Lewis

[Dogface21]

From what Ive read, it was common enough, and BTS stand on it is strange. They say that grenades were not common enough, fine, but what about sherms poopin em off, or Arty? WP was used enough to warrant its use in the game. IMHO.

[Andrew H.]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dirtweasle:

It's damage has a persistent nature maybe? Nothing else in the game has the potetial to cause damage for some + amount of time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that the persistent damage of WP is meaningful for the CM scale: a person hit by WP would be incapacitated by the first hit. The fact that the WP continues to burn would create a medical problem, but the eventual recovery (or not) of the wounded is not covered by CM. WP would not have the effect of causing apparently healthy squad members to become casualties later in the battle...which could, I suppose, cause coding problems.

For that matter, a piece of shrapnel in your leg will cause persistent damage if you keep trying to run on it.

[JonS]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

... WP ... Its a dangerous round to carry because if it is ruptured, theres maybe a split second before the inside of the tank gets deadly. Another reason for wet stowage!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lewis, you know that Phosphorus and water don't mix right? Or rather, they do mix, but rather explosivly. Engineers - even static engineers - in the States get taught that, yeah?

If you were worried about the likelyhood of WP rounds fracturing and wanted to flood them with something, you'd be better off with oil.

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JonS:

Lewis, you know that Phosphorus and water don't mix right? Or rather, they do mix, but rather explosivly. Engineers - even static engineers - in the States get taught that, yeah?

If you were worried about the likelyhood of WP rounds fracturing and wanted to flood them with something, you'd be better off with oil.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had heard that immersion in water starves it of oxygen, thus slowing the reaction. Not so?

Michael

[JonS]

try it...

[Andrew H.]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael emrys:

I had heard that immersion in water starves it of oxygen, thus slowing the reaction. Not so?

Michael<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. WP will liberate the oxygen from the water and keep burning. In Korea, I think the would use copper sulfate (or something like that) to try and make it go out.

[Username]

(7) First aid -- treat burns caused by WP in the same way as ordinary burns. If particles of WP are embedded in the flesh, immerse the wound in water or pack with wet cloths to halt combustion. Then pick out or squeeze out the WP. The particles will reignite spontaneously if allowed to dry. Apply copper sulphate solution to halt combustion of the WP particles. This permits them to be removed without igniting.

P4 is white phos. It ignites in air reacting with oxygen in the air. It is unstable/insoluble in water but JonS is wrong. Having it stowed in a vehicle, like the shermans did with wet stowage lockers, would be preferable to open air. But JonS is just trying to pull my string.

http://chppm-www.apgea.army.mil/dts/docs/detwp.pdf

Have a nice day Jonnyboy

Lewis

[Username]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrew Hedges:

No. WP will liberate the oxygen from the water and keep burning. In Korea, I think the would use copper sulfate (or something like that) to try and make it go out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure about this? You are saying that it will break down liquid H2O into O2 and H (gasses)?

One of the ways to manufacture WP shells is to fill them with molten WP under water.

Lewis

[Andrew H.]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Username:

Are you sure about this? You are saying that it will break down liquid H2O into O2 and H (gasses)?

One of the ways to manufacture WP shells is to fill them with molten WP under water.

Lewis<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to Martin Russ's "Breakout" (a book about the breakout from the Chosin Reservoir in Korea), this is exactly how the working of WP was explained to Marines (including the breaking down of H2O to liberate the oxygen).

I can't say that it's correct as a matter of science, though: while it's possible that WP that has been ignited behaves differently from molten WP (i.e., the burning WP will keep burning under water, but will not ignite underwater in the absence of "free" oxygen"), it is also possible that what the Marines were told about WP was incorrect (maybe so that they would actually use proper first aid for WP and not just pour water on the wound).

[Edit]If you go HERE you can find an experiment that has WP being extinguished by water. I would recommend not trying this at home, although,actually, the experiment looks like it could be tried at home.

Probably the greater lesson is not to rely on chemical "facts" from mil history books.

[ 09-03-2001: Message edited by: Andrew Hedges ]

[Username]

WP shells are set off by a burster charge, a small HE charge to break the shell and blow chunks of the WP all over. The WP will ignite with the O2 in the air. It creates Phos pentoxide or something like that.

Its all a matter of surface area. The more surface exposed to air, the more burning willy pete. A shell that has been cracked open and a dousing of water based fluid is better than exposure to air.

Again, just a snipey little remark from JonS he cant back up.

Lewis

[MikeyD]

U.S. 76mm/3 inch tank guns didn't field WP so for them it was just good old HC (Hexachlorithane) chemical smoke. Except I heard of one M10 TD unit in Normandy getting hold of some bootleg Navy base-ejection magnesium star shells(!) and using them offensively against ground targets. Now that would be pretty spectacular to see at night!

[Wilhammer]

Persitence refers to affecting the TERRAIN, in essence the effects of the weapon LINGERS.

I would think it would be like temporary mines. Your units generally avoid it once discovered, but some men may still stumble into it and suffer damage.

I think it should last no more than a minute, unless it sets the terrain on fire, then it is treated like any other burning tile.

WP would work well as a special ammo type for ALL sides, with increasing/decreasing availability as needed.

All sides used it, the Americans happened to have far more of it.

The problem added to it all is that it seems to have been a wepon of choice for some units, and unheard of by others, but general knowledge on it did spread.

The other problem is BTS has said they WILL not update CM:BO, period.

So, we are lobbying for CM5, BO Returns (or, what happens when your deodorant stops working .

[Wilhammer]

Volatile when mixed with Oxygen, often stored under water to prevent reactivity. Can react with water by reacting with Oxygen.

Details below:

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/phs103.html

[Dirtweasle]

not to digress, but I am thinking there is another chemical that when exposed to water it has a very explosive reaction... shoot, can't recall what it is now.

[Bobbaro]

Metallic sodium and potassium react with water to release hydrogen and heat. A nice combination for ignition. I suspect that in an open space the effect would not be any more dangerous than a burning gas break. Dangerous enough but localized.

I believe that the prefered liquid for white phosphorous storage is a petrolium liquid. I have seen it stored under kerosene.

Actually volitile refers to evaporative properties, if I recall, not meaning explosive per se. Water is volitile. Inflamable liquids of high volitility can create an explosive air-gas mix quickly and

if ignited, boom. On the otherhand they may just burn vigorously out in the open.

I would think that the time of effect of burning phosphorous without other complications would vary with the size of the round. One minute seems a little short to me. But perhaps it is right. It would depend on the strength of the charge that splatters it. If the chunks are relatively large it could burn for some time. Think of it as a thick grease that is burning. Pieces that lie in situations that slow air movement to it would burn slower.

I read an account of an airman in the Pacific Theatre being hit with a piece of Japanese WP flack. It burned into his flesh and was still working when his plane landed sometime later.

I haven't seen any reference here to WP bazooka rounds other than mine, which came from G Company's War, edited by Paul Roley.

I suspect that what BTS requires for any reconsideration of WP is to be presented with documentation of how much was supplied to troops in a given theatre and in what types of ordinance. The more forward the better.

[ 09-04-2001: Message edited by: Bobbaro ]

[Dirtweasle]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bobbaro:

Metallic sodium and potassium react with water to release hydrogen and heat... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's it. Very nasty in a burning building and the firefighters spray water all over it not nowing what is in there.

[Harold Jones]

If I remember right, BTS did not include WP rounds because the smoke effects were not different enough to include another round type to track and that people would use the rounds ahistorically.

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bobbaro:

Metallic sodium and potassium react with water to release hydrogen and heat. A nice combination for ignition. I suspect that in an open space the effect would not be any more dangerous than a burning gas break. Dangerous enough but localized.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it's more explosive than gas. I did a demo in chemistry last year that consisted of dropping a small sliver of metallic sodium in water. The piece was smaller than an eraser on a pencil. The resulting explosion sprayed water 10 feet in the air and was really loud.