BTS: Soviet advantage in night operations for CM2

[Gregory Deych]

Originally posted by Offwhite:

Not to pick on Andrew, but how could a Green Soviet unit, which by definition has seen little or no fighting, be significantly better at a certain kind of fighting (in this case, night) than a Green German unit? And if the Soviets were good at night fighting because they did it so much, doesn't the same apply to the Germans who were defending against it every night?

The reason why the Russians were better at night attacks is very simple - they trained for it. Night attacks were a significant part of the unit training from...oh, about late 41 onwards. This is as much of a fact as Russians using Mosin-Nagants and Germans using Mausers.

[Terence]

Did the germans not train for attacking or defending at night? I imagine the idea might have occurred to them after being pasted by the Red Army at night a few times.

And if the Russians did train for it, is there some evidence you could point to that displays that they were in fact, good at it.

Im reading Steel Inferno now, and Im very impressed with the author's research and his obvious careful study. Among other things, he cites the war diaries of various units as evidence for how a particular action transpired or how a weapons system worked.

Is there anyhing similar for this night fighting issue.

An excerpt or selection of excerpts from German units reports that say things like: "Well, Herr Hauptmann, we got nailed again last night by Ivan. Losses are high, and the men are terrified to go out to pee after 6 pm. I don't know how they do it but I'd swear by Goerings fat arse that every Russian soldier can see in the dark."

Or something.

[JoePrivate]

Originally posted by Terence:

Did the germans not train for attacking or defending at night? I imagine the idea might have occurred to them after being pasted by the Red Army at night a few times.

And if the Russians did train for it, is there some evidence you could point to that displays that they were in fact, good at it.

Im reading Steel Inferno now, and Im very impressed with the author's research and his obvious careful study. Among other things, he cites the war diaries of various units as evidence for how a particular action transpired or how a weapons system worked.

Is there anyhing similar for this night fighting issue.

An excerpt or selection of excerpts from German units reports that say things like: "Well, Herr Hauptmann, we got nailed again last night by Ivan. Losses are high, and the men are terrified to go out to pee after 6 pm. I don't know how they do it but I'd swear by Goerings fat arse that every Russian soldier can see in the dark."

Or something.

I'm reading Steel Inferno also, the author states the the 12SS specifically trained for night attacks, infiltration, camouflage etc. Now that probably was a result of total Allied air superiority in Normandy and perhaps also lessons learned from Russia. The author also states the Commonwealth troops, at least in the opening weeks of the campaign, did not conduct night operations, in fact seemed ill-prepared for any sort of night activity at all. I'm not overly familiar with the Russian campaign, but from CM:BO BTS doesn't factor those 'general characteristics', leaving us instead with the experience/fanatical/HQ modifiers.

[CavScout]

Odd though, that in another thread the "fact" that Germans infantry 'trained' to fight enemy armor without AT weapons made the automatically less fearful than Allies infantry facing a enemy armor in a similar situation.

Funny that some of those wanting steel nerved German infantry, when facing Allied tanks because of "training" received, are not willing to allow similar bonuses for Russians who trained for night combat.

[Freak]

Cavscout:

I suggest you pick your bone elseware.

We don't need flamebait here. Go somewhere else please.

[This message has been edited by Freak (edited 02-14-2001).]

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by CavScout:

Funny that some of those wanting steel nerved German infantry, when facing Allied tanks because of "training" received, are not willing to allow similar bonuses for Russians who trained for night combat.

Funny CavScout I did not read that at all in that thread. How about you provide a quote of where somebody said that, because otherwise I would have to assume you are lying about this.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Terence]

Funny ha ha or funny strange? I read some of that thread, but it made my eyeballs itch, so I stopped.

Whatever the case of the training, is there a good argument to make all the Russian troops universally, better at night fighting, and how do you suppose BTS might implement it beyond just using the existing skill classifications: elite, conscript, green, etc,

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by Terence:

Funny ha ha or funny strange? I read some of that thread, but it made my eyeballs itch, so I stopped.

Whatever the case of the training, is there a good argument to make all the Russian troops universally, better at night fighting, and how do you suppose BTS might implement it beyond just using the existing skill classifications: elite, conscript, green, etc,

Funny Haha or Funny Strange I leave to your judgement.

I think there is no place for nationality modifiers in the game. Neither for the Germans nor for the Allies. This is best handled through the experience system, and left to scenario designers. We have had very long discussions about this before, so anybody interested would be well advised to do a search.

Or just answer the following questions:

1. For any nationality modifier proposed, how would you quantify the actual effect of the 'observed' behaviour in relation to units not benefitting from the modifier in a way that makes it possible to include it in the game?

2. What are your sources that make unequivocally clear that all units of a given nation deserve a blanket modifier?

If you can not provide meaningful answers, then IMO there is no case for a nationality modifier.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[CavScout]

Originally posted by Germanboy:

Funny CavScout I did not read that at all in that thread. How about you provide a quote of where somebody said that, because otherwise I would have to assume you are lying about this.

"In real life, infantry without AT weapons support did not have a lot of chances against tanks either. To quote a veteran WWII grunt, who survived seven tank attacks himself and obviously discussed it a lot with fellow soldiers, if attacking infantry had tanks and you had no AT gun (or AT rifle, at least) around, you were caput."

To which, "Unless you were German." was quickly replied.

Knowing that you backed up the person saying that and prentending to not about it know makes you the liar Germanboy.

[CavScout]

Originally posted by Germanboy:

I think there is no place for nationality modifiers in the game. Neither for the Germans nor for the Allies.

Then why did you jump so hard to defend the "German advantage" against armor in the other thread?

"do you have any data on Allied infantry training courses in taking out tanks in close combat? I have (somewhere) the PDF of a training brochure for German infantry that confirms Michael's statement."--Germanboy

or

"I saw the point that the German soldiers were specifically trained to deal with tanks hands on, while the Allied soldiers were not. Whether this translated into different performance (also a function of weapons available of course) is a totally different question, IMO, but a decent assumption to make."--Germanboy

Why is it not a "decent assumption" that Soviets were better at fighting at night if they trained to do so but it is when regarding German training?

I just wish people would hide their biases more effectivly.

Cav

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"Maneuverists have a bad case of what may be called, to borrow from a sister social science, "'Wehrmact penis envy.'"--D. Bolger

Co-Chairman of the CM Jihad Brigade

Founder of the CMers who like playing the Allies Club

[Jasper]

Terrance:

On my 'FunFacts' sites listed below try:

"Tank Action at Night", "Night Combat", "Night Attack in the Mountains" all translated from Russian articles.

Other articles that may or may not be related to night operations:

"Night Combat" - Swiss, "Defense Against Night Air Raids" - Chile.

The 'Combat Lessons' published by the US Army make frequent mention of successful night attack against German forces, and how to do it. And also how to defend against night attacks made by the German forces.

While the lack of German literature describing night attacks will never be conclusive (and who knows? I might stumble across some as I plow through more stuff), I think is safe to say that the Russian placed a great deal of emphasis on night actions *early*.

Given the general lack of preparedness of the German's for the Russian winter, their preparedness for night combat can now be suspect. I think the 'burden of proof' is now on you to provide evidence that the Germans considered night fighting as a priority - say before 1943.

PS - Not preparing for night fighting is an easy thing to do. The Navy didn't do it until the Japanese "explained" it to them.

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Check out http://www.geocities.com/funfacts2001/ or

http://hyperion.spaceports.com/~funfacts/ for military documents written during WWII.

[John Kelly]

Stalin's purge did as much to handicap the Soviet Army as the German tactical superiority. There is evidence that the border units had to seek permission to return fire. Perhaps the night combat issue could be addressed by allowing them to initiate this type of combat, but I can't imagine allowing any particular advantage otherwise. John

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by CavScout:

Funny that some of those wanting steel nerved German infantry, when facing Allied tanks because of "training" received, are not willing to allow similar bonuses for Russians who trained for night combat.

This is what you said.

Originally posted by CavScout:

"In real life, infantry without AT weapons support did not have a lot of chances against tanks either. To quote a veteran WWII grunt, who survived seven tank attacks himself and obviously discussed it a lot with fellow soldiers, if attacking infantry had tanks and you had no AT gun (or AT rifle, at least) around, you were caput."

This is what you provide as backup - where does it ask for a bonus?

Sorry CavScout, so far my assumption has not been disproved. Try harder.

Originally posted by CavScout:

I just wish people would hide their biases more effectivly.Cav

Indeed.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[CavScout]

Originally posted by Germanboy:

This is what you provide as backup - where does it ask for a bonus?

Sorry CavScout, so far my assumption has not been disproved. Try harder.

Try reading harder Germanboy. The thread is there for anyone to read. Are you know claiming the thread didn't include efforts to increase German 'resolve' against armor?

READ THREAD

[Guest Germanboy]

Originally posted by CavScout:

Try reading harder Germanboy. The thread is there for anyone to read. Are you know claiming the thread didn't include efforts to increase German 'resolve' against armor?

READ THREAD

Yes. Please show me where anybody in the thread to which you so kindly provided a link is saying that. I re-read it, I can not find anything to that effect in it. As I said, try harder.

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Andreas

Der Kessel

Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission.

[Terence]

Originally posted by Jasper:

I think the 'burden of proof' is now on you to provide evidence that the Germans considered night fighting as a priority - say before 1943.

Well, I feel no need to do any such thing. I'm not even sure why you are addressing me.

(Although I love your site and read it often and am happy to know more about what you have available)

I merely posed this question:

Is there a good argument to make all the Russian troops universally, better at night fighting, and how do you suppose BTS might implement it beyond just using the existing skill classifications: elite, conscript, green, etc,

It was not an arugment.

It was not a contention, a position of mine, or a statement needing defense.

This is not the Oxford Debating Society, and I don't need a homework assignment.

I'm only asking

[Tiger]

If BTS, for good historically proven reasons, provided bonuses for any nationality this would easily be translated into an increased point cost. I.e. purchased trained night-fighting troops you'd pay for their extra training. Though there might be some risk unless you are sure it's going to be a night time operation.

[Jasper]

Terrance: Because you posted

And if the Russians did train for it, is there some evidence you could point to that displays that they were in fact, good at it.

So I pointed to some evidence. Didn't mean to overwhelm you or anything. Sorry about that - just my way of trying to gather more material.

Because, very selfishly, I'd like to know when did the Germans place an emphasis on night fighting? Sure everyone is going to have some night training, but are they serious or just fooling around?

I was hoping you'd go search out other sources to counter the argument (and then bring them back to me) saying "blah blah in thisandthat says that whatever". Oh well - gotta do my own leg work.

Trouble is I don't want to know bad enough to actually do something about it - this 'Human Wave' stuff is interesting. I'll bet I can find some stuff about that regarding the USMC expirences fighting the Japanese. They were supposed to using infantry charges, let's see I'd have to . . . .

PS - I wonder how many people think that I've actually read all that stuff? Skimmed until I find something that makes the thing worth posting - yes. Read and digested - ha!.

[This message has been edited by Jasper (edited 02-15-2001).]

[Moon]

This might help? http://www.gamesofwar.de/tanks-at-night.doc

I can't remember where I got it from, so I am linking to the file on my server, but if anybody knows who the author is, please post here so credit is given for this great work.

BTW, I have this itching feeling that if some folks don't stop bugging each other instead of discussing the (interesting) topic, this thread might get closed, which would be shame.

Martin

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"An hour has 60 minutes, each minute in action has a thousand dangers."

- Karl-Heinz Gauch, CO 1st Panzerspähkompanie, 12th SS Panzerdivision

[ASL Veteran]

I'm not sure I see what relevance German night training has on Soviet effectiveness at night - that seems to be a non sequitur. If you just assume that the Germans were of 'average' effectiveness at night, then what evidence is there that shows that the Soviets were 'better than average'?

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When we were in the Bocage country we were assaulted by them Tigers ... you know what I mean by assaulted huh? WELL I MEAN ASSAULTED!!!!