WHY ARE WARGAMERS SO FRIGGIN' PISSY?

[Franko]

CM is a fun GAME. BTS has done a good job making a GAME. Why is it that there is always some TOOL who takes himself, or his history, or whatever, so GODDAMN seriously as to provoke meaningless arguments which lead to meaningless gestures, such as "leaving the BTS board".

No one on this board knows as much as they think they know, all could stand a bit more knowledge, and just about everyone could stand just a tad more civility.

No wonder why many gamers don't get laid enough. Sheesh. Big deal, so the guy didn't do a "search" or advocated dead body bmps. Who gives a ****.

Come back Tiger, ya big baby. And whoever provoked him into such a meaningless gesture as resigning from the board, shame on you, you big dork.

Merrily designing scenarios,

Franko

P.S. I did a search under "Wargamers who take themselves too seriously" and found so many dildos that I just thought I'd start a new thread.

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Franko ]

[Shatter]

I totally agree Franko

The whole time I was reading the thread you are reffering to (and I certainly wasn't taking the time to read it all.) I was saying to myself damn don't these people have any thing better to do. I never partake in these flame threads. In my oppinion they are a waste of time. I could be getting laid or playing CM, washing my car, watching paint dry. Anything else, than arguing over some damn bitmap that should or should not be moded. I enjoy CM very much, but not to the extent that I going to argue a point for hours or days.

Tiger you will be missed, but it is kind of a sissy thing to do, to announce you are leaving because of others pissing you off. Tiger just say hey F?CK IT, who cares. Actually all in question of the thread should of just said F?CK IT who cares. Tiger don't get me wrong if you are gone, you will be missed.

So basically people, lighten up, I surely do not know everything, and neither do you.

My 2 cents

Shatter

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Shatter ]

[I/O Error]

Yes, the on-going verbal struggle.

*sigh*

I agree with your sentiments, guys. That thread got a wee bit too hot, too fast.

[Binkie]

I think the problem is that the reasonable & mature gamers just move on when they see a pissing contest, so you don't see a lot of reasonable & mature posts on those threads. The rest of them put one hand down their pants and start flailing the keyboard with the other.

It's too bad that Tiger took it so seriously...this is the first time I have seen the little argument hoars cause us some real damage here. I'll never forget the time I posted a request for a rubble mod (specifically directed at Panzertruppen, no less) and Tiger had a nice replacement available within a few hours.

Damn.

[Mr. Johnson--]

yeah

[Panzer_Meyer]

I also agree.

It seems that some people here LOVE to argue and take the opposite side on purpose just to piss people off. it's freakin redicilous and getting old real fast.

Manx had the same problem, some idiot Grog though he was so smart wanted Manx to shut his site down becuase some mods or scenarios were not historicly accurate. This is just sad.

I betting that in no time we'll have one of these morons in here any minute calling US idiots and ignorant morons and what not.

I just want to see who the first is.

I don't care if Tiger left, that his problem, but I have a problem with people just arguing for the sake of an arguament. That pisses me off, when people want to argue to piss others off, even concerning the most basic and idiotic thing.

[Freak]

Yep agreed. Not every idea or suggestion about the game has to be argued to death as SOME like to do. To much of the old pissing contest going on. We don't need pissing contests to see who has better command of the english language as we have seen time and time again. This threads look more like examples of HOW TO WIN an ARGUMENT then just seeing what the guy has to say or what his idea is and what it might mean to BTS. Either you like it or you don't. Let BTS decide if THEY like the idea or not. Its not up to us to decide weather an idea is bad for the game aside from holding our opinion. BTS is the one that counts.

There are a few on this board that just want to argue everything to death no matter what it is if its a suggestion to BTS. They seem to think they speak for BTS. Oh what a shame.

Not every idea or suggestion about the game has to be argued to death as some like to do.

Tiger come back!!! We miss you!!!

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Freak ]

[Slapdragon]

That thread started off wasted from minute one, and went down hill. However, Tiger is not a saint who is throwing himself on his sword (nor is he a sinner who is cast out from heaven either). Post #4 on that thread had Tiger telling Rhett

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Rett, don't be an asshole." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it is pretty well understood that when you post a subject, you are opening yourself up to serious debate on that subject as well as some light hearted humor (hamsters anyone). Even this topic for that matter. That is the basis for the Internet web groups that grew out of Usenet.

Franko, if you mean by your post that all intellectual debate, discussion, and contact should end, then I believe you are on a different Internet than I am. I for one read Micheal Dorosh, Germanboy (Andreas) John Walters, Rextons, Senechai, and other peoples posts avidily, and would hate to have the thought police step on them because a few people cannot handle adult conversation.

On the other hand, if you mean that people should learn to bring their discussions out better, keep from getting over heated, read other peoples posts, accept criticism, and approach those subjects that need intellectual scrutiny with discipline, then yes, I agree that we need to have fewer people piling on the flame wagons and more people brinmging ideas to the table.

I think the worst thing about that thread was not the flaming, which started as I said on post four and was started by the person who first opened the post, but that Senechai, who stuck his head out of the Cesspool and made a real sensible comment and asked a good question, was told his comment and question where not valid because he was from the Cesspool. Tiger's leaving may have been inevitable once people began to start threatening to leave if their ideas where debated, but it is not inevitable that Senechai had to be dissed.

[CMplayer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Post #4 on that thread had Tiger telling Rhett :

Rett don't be an asshole

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was no big deal; we can all

get ticked off from time to time.

What matters more, and I think

it's the same for a lot of people

expressing frustration here, is

being able to cool off quickly and

not carry the grudge. Tiger did

that like a gentleman, at least

as far as regards me, and I tried

to follow his example. I like

Slappy's chapter-and-verse type

posts, as well as people who say

what they think in plain talk, and

don't mind if people shout at each

other as long as they can make it

right after. Just my 2cents.

--Rett

[David Aitken]

In the thread in question, I pointed out two things;

• The discussion quickly moved on from the subject of Tiger's proposed bitmap. Therefore, as I clearly stated to Tiger, the argument was not entirely relevant to him, and he should not feel the need to defend himself.

• Tiger was the only person to direct personal insults.

No-one in that thread was seeking to simply prevent Tiger having his way for the sake of it. The debate wasn't even about his bitmap, it was about wider issues. However, as soon as the first dissent was voiced, he became quickly irritated, and started throwing insults.

I appreciate that Tiger has produced some good modifications for CM, and that many here would obviously be sad if he were to leave. But if he can't bear to see debate on this forum (otherwise what is it for?), then that's his problem.

No-one did anything which would encourage him to leave – he simply reacted badly to what he saw, and apparently couldn't bear to see any more.

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CMplayer:

That was no big deal; we can all

get ticked off from time to time.

What matters more, and I think

it's the same for a lot of people

expressing frustration here, is

being able to cool off quickly and

not carry the grudge. Tiger did

that like a gentleman, at least

as far as regards me, and I tried

to follow his example. I like

Slappy's chapter-and-verse type

posts, as well as people who say

what they think in plain talk, and

don't mind if people shout at each

other as long as they can make it

right after. Just my 2cents.

--Rett<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This has certainly happened between us from time to time. Andreas and I have a love / hate relationship, and John Waters and I never agree, but for some reason no matter how heated the debates get, John comes back the next thread, maybe he agrees with me, maybe he does not, and Germanboy is sometimes confident of my facts, or thinks I am a loon, and we never seem to have problems.

There may be a philosophical difference working though. I came from the early Usenet when it was mostly Science and EDU types, and posted something like post #75 to the alt.rockandroll thread when it first openedin protest of censorship of debate and ideas. People from here have a tendency to see the Internet as a market place of ideas, and look at it as a place of learning. Then you have another group that came out of the much later Usenet or the AOL era, who saw Internet communication as more like a livingroom conversation.

This causes a mismatch in communication styles, since a conversation on the patio with beers shooting the **** about sports is expected never to be very serious, and it no one expects someone to go to a scores or color book when arguing football, but conversations that are of an academic more serious nature recquire that more understanding be put forward.

I for one am not sure this mismatch can be mended but would love to hear suggestions.

[Thomm]

I have played around a little bit with the face bitmaps yesterday, and I am now convinced that most of the textures make the face appear to big! One of the bitmaps (the guy with the blue eyes) is frightenly realistic for the low bitmap size, and I am sure that this is because the distances between his eyes and mouth are well related to the size of the polygon head.

I tried to make my own face mod (with MS Paint, no less!!!), but it is very tedious, since every single pixel seems to count. In any case, a lot of care has to be taken when mapping scanned pictures to CM heads!

Regards, Thomm

PS: Sorry for being off-topic.

[necronman]

right on Franko, it drives me crazy that people take all this gaming way to serious.

I don't know the details about Tiger, but I know that some good work has been done by Tiger and take it for what it is. everybody needs to take a chill pill and quit nit picking on every detail there is. where there is a huge to medium error, fine point it out. but leave the little stuff alone. my two cents.

[Simon Fox]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slipupdragon:

This has certainly happened between us from time to time. Andreas and I have a love / hate relationship, and John Waters and I never agree, but for some reason no matter how heated the debates get, John comes back the next thread, maybe he agrees with me, maybe he does not, and Germanboy is sometimes confident of my facts, or thinks I am a loon, and we never seem to have problems.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's it slipshod, you've gone too far this time. Leaving me off your people you love to hate list is the deepest insult I've ever received on this forum.

I'm going AND DON"T EXPECT ME BACK!!!

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For at least 5 min

[Dilger]

so true!

[Freak]

Slapdragon,

Perhaps you should realize more that this is not Usenet. We don't need to be scarring off some of our best modders becouse of it.

Regardless of where you are we are still all human. Even if its through a computer screen.

Perhaps you might try and reach out to Tiger so the rest of us can enjoy his company and his great work towards this community.

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Freak ]

[Andreas]

What is this? Right or wrong, he is a great modder, therefore we should not argue with him?

Can you lot please get real? This is beginning to remind me of the case in the very early days where another great modder was excused by some for using the pirated version of CMBO, just because he was a great modder. Being able to handle Paintshop Pro does not make you a better person!

Tiger knew what he was getting himself into, he was no saint during the debate, and the low level of that debate was really not due to either side in it (Echo, Rommel22 certainly did nothing to bring the level up).

As far as leaving goes, if you can't hack it anymore, leave. I have done that, and if that's how you feel, fine. Unlike some others, I did not think that I would be important enough to start a little tantrum about leaving though, I just went. I think I would respect Tiger more if he had done the same. What I suspect he is doing here now is trying to cash in on his modder status. I maybe wrong, but that is what it looks like from here.

Oh, and before I forget:

HI MOM!

[Stacheldraht]

Like I've said before, in essence: this forum can get as petty and vicious as any other, it's just that most posters have a bigger vocabularly than you might find on some other forums. You rarely see people resorting to outright vulgar insults here, but 25-cent words or stabs at logic can't disguise a lot of the sour maliciousness that stands behind many posts. CM is wargaming's greatest hope, atm; it would be great if this place were more welcoming to gamers of all stripes. Better to save the ruthlessness for the CM battlefield

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Stacheldraht ]

[PeterNZer]

1. leave emotion out of the debate and stay with the facts
   
2. leave everybody his opinion
   
3. listen to other posts and evaluate them before you start to "flame
   
4. separate "people" and "opinions"
   

It's very simple to do if you don't take another opinion on a topic as a personal insult. This forum had problems with it from the start, and I never really understood the general inability of MANY people on this board to discuss without flaming.

Lindan

HI MOM!!!

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon Fox:

That's it slipshod, you've gone too far this time. Leaving me off your people you love to hate list is the deepest insult I've ever received on this forum.

I'm going AND DON"T EXPECT ME BACK!!!

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

For at least 5 min<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Will someone please tell me how to insult Simon in a way that it keeps him missing for a month or two? I can drive Tiger away just by batting an eye lash but outright verbal abuse of Simon gets me nowhere!!!!!

Well, what can you expect from a country that was smart enough to buy the F-111 from the United States and cannot recognize that their cultural center is Tasmania. Oh yeah, and that whole Paul Hogan thing.

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Slapdragon ]

[I/O Error]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lindan:

1. 
   <LI> leave emotion out of the debate and stay with the facts
   <LI> leave everybody his opinion
   <LI> listen to other posts and evaluate them before you start to "flame
   <LI> separate "people" and "opinions"
   

It's very simple to do if you don't take another opinion on a topic as a personal insult. This forum had problems with it from the start, and I never really understood the general inability of MANY people on this board to discuss without flaming.

Lindan

HI MOM!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*sneer*

Well, where's the fun in THAT?!

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freak:

Slapdragon,

Perhaps you should realize more that this is not Usenet. We don't need to be scarring off some of our best modders becouse of it.

Regardless of where you are we are still all human. Even if its through a computer screen.

Perhaps you might try and reach out to Tiger so the rest of us can enjoy his company and his great work towards this community.

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Freak ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, that is just the point. Modder or no -- should he be able to censor dozens or hundreds of people with the threat of gathering his crayons and running to his room?

I see people treat some forms of celebrity like this all the time. I have seen a celeb throw a drink at an intern for reminding him that he needed to be on set, and people said, well, she should expect that -- he is famous.

I totally don't believe we as an intellectual community need to encourage the impression that certian people can flame and twist with impunity, while others are gagged from participating in intellectual conversations.

I think Tiger could have set a better tone, accepted and participated better in the conversation, and maybe kept the threat going better (he should have expected it to be a place of debate) or he could have contacted BTS privately if that was not possible. On the other hand, he was not responsible for the number of side issue posts, the anti BTS Hooligans, that Echo thing, and the like.

I can just note that Tiger's "Farewell" was not meant to be a community building thing, but to create division and ill feelings on those he left behind. Its just not a very nice thing to do. I predict that it will spawn 48 discussions and add more flames and bitterness.

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

Well, what can you expect from a country that was smart enough to buy the F-111 from the United States and cannot recognize that their cultural center is Tasmania. Oh yeah, and that whole Paul Hogan thing.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maintenance-wise, then okay, not the smartest move (especially with the engines). But mission-wise, the Aussies coulda done worse. They coulda bought F-15E's or F-16's or F/A-18's or whatever else out there that can't hold a candle in the strike mission like an F-111 Aardvark could.

( )

But it matters little. In about 10-15 years, strike missions with manned aircraft may be pretty rare for the USA anyways.

PS: Taz rocks!!!

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Spook ]

[Slapdragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spook:

Maintenance-wise, then okay, not the smartest move (especially with the engines). But mission-wise, the Aussies coulda done worse. They coulda bought F-15E's or F-16's or F/A-18's or whatever else out there that can't hold a candle in the strike mission like an F-111 Aardvark could.

( )

But it matters little. In about 10-15 years, strike missions with manned aircraft may be pretty rare for the USA anyways.

PS: Taz rocks!!!

[ 07-26-2001: Message edited by: Spook ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boags Beer Rules.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Getting back specifically to the topic. My view is that wargamers are by nature "pissy" because we are usually ultra competitive with egos of varying sizes and many take it as a personal slap in the face if we lose a game to someone. Carry this attitude throught to a forum like this and you're bound to see flare-up's and occasional dummy spits as a result.

That's my take on the unfortunate loss of Tiger to this forum. Any criticism of his mods or mod suggestions were taken far too personally by him in my view. If someone was critical in any way he took it as a personal attack on his mod making ability (read ego) and hence the eventual dummy spit.

Regards

Jim R.