Pzman Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 How othern then Army Groups North, center, and south where they organised? The few things I know is that most of the Armored forces on the Eastern Front was in Army group center is this true? I am not asking about Battalion level I mean Higher, as in the Division Level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaBellum Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 Army group north (Ritter v.Leeb) Panzergruppe 4 (Hoepner: -XLI.Pz.-Korps -LVI.Pz.-Korps 18th Army (v.Küchler) 16th Army (Busch) Armoured forces included 1st,6th and 8th Pz.Division and 2 mot.Inf.divisions with about 570 tanks. Army group center (v.Bock): Panzergruppe 2 (Guderian) -XXIV.Pz.Korps -3rd Pz.Div, 4th Pz.Div, 10th mot.Inf, 1st Cav. Division -XXXXVI.Pz.korps -10th Pz.Div. SS "das Reich", inf.Reg. "Grossdeutschland" -XXXXVII.Pz.Korps -17th Pz.Div., 18th Pz.Div., 29th mot.Inf Division Panzergruppe 3 (Hoth) -XXXXIX.Pz.Korps -7th Pz.Div, 19th Pz.Div, ? -? Armoured forces in Army group center include about 930 tanks. Army group south (v.Rundstedt): 11th army (Ritter v.Schobert) 17th army (v.Stülpnagel) 6th army (v.Reichenau) Panzergruppe 1 (v.Kleist) Armoured forces inlude about 750 tanks. [ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: ParaBellum ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grisha Posted July 13, 2001 Share Posted July 13, 2001 There were no hard and fast arrangements. Parabellum's OOB is for the beginning of Barbarossa. In the summer of 1942, 1943 & 1944, most of the panzers were in AGS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted July 14, 2001 Author Share Posted July 14, 2001 Dose anyone know the arengment of the German forces on the Eastern front after 1943? Like the table that ParaBellum set up? [ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: Panzerman ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Rob, you are talking about 4 years of warfare over more than 1000 miles of front. Organizations changed rapidly. In general, the bulk of the armor was concentrated in the center or south, since northern Russia tends to be swampy forest generally unsuitable for armored operations. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted July 14, 2001 Author Share Posted July 14, 2001 Now other then the "Lighting war" style attack what tactics where used in general by most forces on that front? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatpr Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 As several posters pointed out most of the Panzer and Panzer Grenadier units were in the south. It's misleading because Armme group Center had a couple of Panzer Armies on their OB but they were all infantry with maybe a Pzgr division. Also in 1944 AG South split into two army groups North & South Ukraine tho' there was little enough of the Ukraine in German hands at the time of the split, which seems to have been partially motivated by Hitler's faith in Model as a handler of armor. Why he believed that is a mystery that died with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted July 14, 2001 Author Share Posted July 14, 2001 Because he was a nut? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWB Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Much of the fighting on the eastern front actually resembled fighting in the later days of WW I with a higher proportion of automatic weapons. Most of the front was held by dug in infantry facing dug in infantry with little hope for armored support. One must remeber that of the 200 or so German divisions in the line, maybe 20 were motorized or panzer divisions at any given time. I am not so sure about the Sovies, but they did have more tanks to go around. WWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 My God these are broad questions..read a book or something. Read Guderian's Panzer Leader, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted July 14, 2001 Author Share Posted July 14, 2001 Sorry I don't have that much money to throw around. :mad: [ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: Panzerman ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzerman: Sorry I don't have that much money to throw around. :mad: [ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: Panzerman ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Try a friggin library.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted July 14, 2001 Author Share Posted July 14, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh: Try a friggin library....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Do you think I would ask here if I didn't look first dumy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gatpr: As several posters pointed out most of the Panzer and Panzer Grenadier units were in the south. It's misleading because Armme group Center had a couple of Panzer Armies on their OB but they were all infantry with maybe a Pzgr division. Also in 1944 AG South split into two army groups North & South Ukraine tho' there was little enough of the Ukraine in German hands at the time of the split, which seems to have been partially motivated by Hitler's faith in Model as a handler of armor. Why he believed that is a mystery that died with him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hitler's faith in Model had nothing to do with his ability to handle armor, per say it had to do more with, that Model generaly got the job done, much like Henricini, Model was a defensive specialist. Regards, John Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offtaskagain Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzerman: Sorry I don't have that much money to throw around. :mad: [ 07-13-2001: Message edited by: Panzerman ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I found it for less than $10. It's really not that expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 Panzerman, I don't think anyone here means to belittle you: your question seems earnest and your intent sincere. I suspect that some of the lack of patience you perceive here from grogs comes from the fact that their knowledge of the facts you seek came the hard way...from months and years of reading, study and, yes gaming also. What you are being told (in a groggy sort of way) is to go out and find your joy with the abundant reference material to be had...even on the internet, which you clearly have access to. Your questions are welcome, but a certain amount of preparation will enable you to draw out the information that you desire, without asking for the moon, so to speak. Good hunting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gunnergoz: Panzerman, I don't think anyone here means to belittle you: your question seems earnest and your intent sincere. I suspect that some of the lack of patience you perceive here from grogs comes from the fact that their knowledge of the facts you seek came the hard way...from months and years of reading, study and, yes gaming also. What you are being told (in a groggy sort of way) is to go out and find your joy with the abundant reference material to be had...even on the internet, which you clearly have access to. Your questions are welcome, but a certain amount of preparation will enable you to draw out the information that you desire, without asking for the moon, so to speak. Good hunting!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Extremely well put. I mean, the only broader question would have been "did any armies use tanks, and if so, what kind and how good or bad were they?" F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franko: Extremely well put. I mean, the only broader question would have been "did any armies use tanks, and if so, what kind and how good or bad were they?" F.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Franko, just get on with answering that one, and when you are finished, can you tell me how long a piece of string is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatpr Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 My comment about Model and armor is kind of based on the general choices made by a "supreme Warlord" who fired Manstein, and basically replaced him with Model. Model, who commanded two army groups simultaneously, had the strategic appreciation of a turtle. Example before he took over AG center argued he couldn't transfer troops from AG N Ukraine to AG Center. Of course shortly after this, as head of AG Center he did transfer lots of troops to AG Center; just in time for a major Soviet assault on the positions he had just depleted. Model was competent as an army commander, but his promotion to AG commander was over his ability, much less trying to command two AGs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 14, 2001 Share Posted July 14, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gatpr: My comment about Model and armor is kind of based on the general choices made by a "supreme Warlord" who fired Manstein, and basically replaced him with Model. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes I realised that & my comments were to explain why Model had his leaders confidence & where his abilities were, as an General, skilled in defensive operations, & armor was only a secondary concern in defensive operations. Regards, John Waters [ 07-14-2001: Message edited by: PzKpfw 1 ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pzman Posted July 14, 2001 Author Share Posted July 14, 2001 Its not just cost kids. I can't buy books online. The American doller is higher then the Canadian one. That $10 book is about $30 Canadian. And the book store in my area only have stuff on Rommels life history. But I can see why you are asking me to. I did find some books but they are for the Western Front... dosn't help with Russia. Thats what you get in a Conutry where people after the sceond world war forgot it ever happend. At lest thats the way it seams. There just is no demand for those books so they don't sell them its just that simple. And I don't have cash flow that you people have ie a job. That dosn't start till September. Then I think I can do it but in the mean time I have little cash flow so I am stuck. [ 07-14-2001: Message edited by: Panzerman ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatpr Posted July 15, 2001 Share Posted July 15, 2001 Pzkpw 1 I diddn't mean to seem flamish; if I did my apologies. It just boggles the mind that anyone, even as shellshocked as Hitler was by 1944, would can von Manstein and Kleist for Model and Busch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Dorosh Posted July 15, 2001 Share Posted July 15, 2001 It boggles the mind that anyone would murder 10 to 12 million people in gas chambers and mass shootings, too. Is that any easier to believe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Duquette Posted July 15, 2001 Share Posted July 15, 2001 Von Mainstein got his pink slip because he was continuously pissing the Furher off. Von Mainstein was argumentative with Hitler and was continuously demanding operational freedom of action during crisis after crisis, which arose in Army Group South during 1942-44. It appears to be a waste of breath to speak your mind or have a rational conversation with unreasonable folks or with dictators (or unreasonable dictators). Mix in a dose of paranoia and you really have a problem on your hands. Model on the other hand, in spite of his ability to seemingly resurrect armies from thin air, was apparently viewed with contempt by many of his peers. Von Rundstedt likened Model’s martial skills to that of a glorified regimental Sergeant Major. Professional jealousy? Perhaps. Most certainly Model was never dealt a great hand of cards to work with during any of his more famous campaigns. [ 07-14-2001: Message edited by: Jeff Duquette ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted July 15, 2001 Share Posted July 15, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gatpr: Pzkpw 1 I diddn't mean to seem flamish; if I did my apologies. It just boggles the mind that anyone, even as shellshocked as Hitler was by 1944, would can von Manstein and Kleist for Model and Busch.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> gatpr, I didn't consider your posts content flamish. I wanted to post why Model was held in such regard by Hitler. Jeff brings up a good point, about other German Generals feelings about Model, & other Generals they felt were lesser qualified then themselves. What the German army needed on the Eastren Front after Zitadelle was defensive specialist leadership, not offensive, leadership. Manstien even had he been given freedom of action, would not have changed the outcome, only delayed it & cost Germany more men & material losses. Regards, John Waters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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