Stupid/gamey defense that works GREAT!

[killmore]

I was amazed how well the following combination works for Germans:

15% points - 75mm Inf guns

40% points - Pupchen (best AT gun!?!)

45% points - Light Mg42

In 700 points game you should be able buy about 3 Inf 75, 10Pupchens, and over 30 MG42.

This combination seems to stop cold 90% of Assualts.

There is so much units that even heavy barages don't take enought of them.

You can position MG42s in every forest, house, outhouse and doghouse!

Pupchens can also cover 99% of all tank approches with multiple guns!

75mm Inf should be positioned to take out possible infantry concentrations in front of your MGs...

Tanks, mines, artilery is not needed.

[109 Gustav]

Those puppchens and infantry guns will hold up real well against 81mm mortars. And in closed terrain, attacking infantry will be able to get in close enough to wipe out the LMGs and infantry guns.

I'll be glad to PBEM this with you, if you want.

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The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, Classic threads, and more!

Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

[killmore]

Originally posted by 109 Gustav:

Those puppchens and infantry guns will hold up real well against 81mm mortars

Unless you have a huge amount of mortart loosing bunch of gun does not matter. Obviously you hide the guns until they are needed

[109 Gustav]

Should have been more clear, I meant 81mm mortar arty, not the on map kind.

Another concern- your defense doesn't seem to be very flexible. For example, how would you react to an unexpected assault on your flank?

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The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, Classic threads, and more!

Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

[ParaBellum]

IMHO this force would only be useful when playing against the AI.

The biggest problem I see is that your force misses long range AT assets and close assault protection.

The Püppchen has good penetration power but because of its low muzzle velocity it can only be used effectively up to 200-300m max.

That means that you have to position your AT assets very close to your MLR.

If your opponet uses adequate recce techniques he will discover your AT guns quickly and dispatch them with artillery fire or long range HE DF. Guns are VERY vulnerable to all sorts of arty, even 60mm onboard mortars can do the job.

Once your AT guns are history he can pound your LMG positions with direct HE.

I would also assault your LMG positions with infantry while using smoke to block your LOS.

Once my infantry is close assaulting your LMGs there's not much you can do anymore.

I DO believe that with this force mix you can REALLY shred the AI, but I doubt that it would be equally effective against a human opponent.

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Klotzen, nicht kleckern!

[This message has been edited by ParaBellum (edited 03-22-2001).]

[109 Gustav]

Originally posted by ParaBellum:

IMHO this force would only be useful when playing against the AI.

The biggest problem I see is that your force misses long range AT assets and close assault protection.

My point exactly. Even if half of my infantry get wiped out by the LMGs and infantry guns, once the oher half gets to within 50m, you wouldn't have anything to stop me.

The puppchens would ba a problem just because there's so many of them. However, I usually keep my tanks at least 200m from any suspected enemy positions, so they would have a good chance of surviving to spot the guns. Besides, I've learned not to count on my tanks too much. With no opposing tanks, the big problem would be the infantry guns. I would try and dash from cover to cover, possibly using a little smoke for cover. Again, once I get to within 50m, it's all over.

------------------

The Last Defense- Mods, Scenarios, Classic threads, and more!

Well my skiff's a twenty dollar boat, And I hope to God she stays afloat.

But if somehow my skiff goes down, I'll freeze to death before I drown.

And pray my body will be found, Alaska salmon fishing, boys, Alaska salmon fishing.

[M Hofbauer]

yep. Might work well against the AI. But then again, that is nothing special.

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"Me tank is still alive me churchill's crew must be laughing there heads off." (GAZ_NZ)

[Warmaker]

If you've chosen an infantry force and you know you're facing an Allied Armored force and you're on the defensive then the odds are greatly in your favor especially in dense terrain. However, a think a well conducted attack by infantry will easily defeat this force composition. Remember, those 75mm Inf.guns and LMGs are SUPPORT. They'll get pinned for an assault and the LMGs just don't have enough ammo to hold off an infantry attack long enough.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[grunto2]

try:

50% sdkfz 7/1

50% 75mm recoilless

andy

[Nabla]

Originally posted by killmore:

I was amazed how well the following combination works for Germans:

15% points - 75mm Inf guns

40% points - Pupchen (best AT gun!?!)

45% points - Light Mg42

Give the enemy off-map 81 mm mortars (200 rounds of smoke each) and close-assault infantry. He'll smoke the whole terrain so that visibility will be reduced to something like 20-30 meters. Then he'll be able to walk over your long range infantry (MGs, inf guns) and AT guns in no time.

I'd be really interested to know how the AI would be able to attack with the forces I just described. If you have the time and energy to try, please let me know the results.

[Olle Petersson]

I think a regular US armoured infantry company could do a lot of damage on those

guns and LMGs.

Charge up in tight formation, HT MGs blazing.

Then dismount 10m from the defenders, and gun them down...

Cheers

Olle

[Warmaker]

Originally posted by Olle Petersson:

I think a regular US armoured infantry company could do a lot of damage on those

guns and LMGs.

Charge up in tight formation, HT MGs blazing.

Then dismount 10m from the defenders, and gun them down...

Cheers

Olle

I'm sorry but I'd have to disagree. What I see even with the relatively fast Halftracks they will get shredded up if they do an assault as you described. In tight formation? That's playing right into the blast effects of the 75mm Inf.guns. Also, the Pupchen, if you recall actually have a fast ROF, reminds me of a 50mm ATG. With the Inf.Guns a direct hit isn't necessary since they may immobilize or hit a crewman to induce shock. Once dismounted LMGs can begin to rake the infantry. They don't have to kill them, but if suppressed far enough away the 75mm Inf.guns will inflict heavy losses. Even if Shermans are present, the Pupchens can punch through. They use hollow charge rounds so penetration for their relatively short ranges are inconsequential. Besides, we all know how "well" armored Western tanks generally were. However, with proper use this armored infantry will work.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[Olle Petersson]

Originally posted by Warmaker:

I'm sorry but I'd have to disagree.

I'd say it depends on the defending setup.

If the defender has a couple of strongpoints with not totally overlapping FOF, then most defending units will be out of play.

The HT MGs will do wonders in pinning the defenders, while allowing a fast approach of the infantry.

Some of the 20 or so HTs will probably be lost en route, but that's acceptable.

Ideally is to deploy the infantry just behind the enemy, so that the big guns have to rotate at least 90 degrees before they get a shot off.

I'll have to test this when I get home.

Cheers

Olle

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

The biggest problem with this defense formation is that it is extermely sensible against bad initial placement. None of these units can move fast, only the MGs even normal.

I for one regard myself as someone who takes great care in initial placement, but I never managed to come up with near-optimal FOF and inter-unit cover that I didn't have to tune within the game.

Big part of the problem is that you can't have a reserve (which requires to be fast).

PBEM anyone?

[-Havermeyer-]

Me: Allied

2x81mm spotters (at 200 rounds/spotter).

Me: Round 2. Area target 400 rounds of smoke.

Me: Round 3. Move out.

Me: Round 6. Knifing kraut crews.

You: Round 12. Carrying and burying.

[Warmaker]

Originally posted by -Havermeyer-:

Me: Allied

2x81mm spotters (at 200 rounds/spotter).

Me: Round 2. Area target 400 rounds of smoke.

Me: Round 3. Move out.

Me: Round 6. Knifing kraut crews.

You: Round 12. Carrying and burying.

Exactly, this is one of the glaring weaknesses of this defensive composition. As I said, it relies on the sole use of support weapons and lacks infantry. If infantry were present for the defense, then yes, it'd be a tougher nut to crack. And someone said earlier about the susceptibility of bad initial placement. Another reason that I tend to favor TDs over ATGs is for their greatest asset: Mobility, for when you say,"Oh s#!t, they've got infantry trying to flank me" so you can move to a secondary fighting position. And if infantry come running through the smoke, your own infantry can cut them down, especially if you know how to play the all-important terrain game.

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"Uncommon valor was a common virtue"-Adm.Chester Nimitz of the Marines on Iwo Jima

[Croda]

Originally posted by killmore:

I was amazed how well the following combination works for Germans:

15% points - 75mm Inf guns

40% points - Pupchen (best AT gun!?!)

45% points - Light Mg42

In 700 points game you should be able buy about 3 Inf 75, 10Pupchens, and over 30 MG42.

This combination seems to stop cold 90% of Assualts.

There is so much units that even heavy barages don't take enought of them.

You can position MG42s in every forest, house, outhouse and doghouse!

Pupchens can also cover 99% of all tank approches with multiple guns!

75mm Inf should be positioned to take out possible infantry concentrations in front of your MGs...

Tanks, mines, artilery is not needed.

Wow! That sounds like a lot of fun to play too! I bet it's great to be able to hit 'go' every turn without issuing a single order. I'm going to go home and play this and show it to my friends. It's win to be proud of.

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Woot! - Maximus2k

Stick around while the clown who is sick does the trick of disaster.

You are quite correct, but sniper is an easier term to use than 'Semi-regular soldier hiding out and shooting enemies unawares.' - wwb_99

The New CessPool

I AM CRODA, ENEMY OF THE SCIENTIFIC PROCESS, EVOLUTIONARY PROCESS AND REPRODUCTIVE PROCESS. PETERNZ OWNS MY SIG FILE AND MY MEAGRE SOUL: ANY REASONABLE OFFER ACCEPTED

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

An AAR against the AI. The AI is generally quite good in finding defense positions for guns and MGs, so I thought it gives usable data.

May 1945 clear/dry 30 turns.

700 defender points spent like indicated.

1050 attacker points, I chose (all regular):

- 1x M4A3(105) HVSS Sherman

- 2x U.S. rifle platton

- 2x 3" mortar on-map

- 2x flamethrower team

- 1x Stuart Kangaroo

- 2x M5A1 halftrack

- 1x 105mm VT off-map

- 1x 81mm Mortar off-map

This is not a particulary clever force if you know what you are against, but I wanted a collection that would be imaginable in a "clear that village, lots of MGs and small guns there" situation.

I wonder whether there is even enough ammunition to get rid of all those LMG teams...

The terrain is a village with unusual many streets and a large victory marker on the main crossing. One street is leading from my edge of the map to the big victory marker in a straight line. A small vitory marker is on a street crossing on the outmost northeastern edge on a stree crossing. To the right of the east-west strett is some woods that allow my infantry to move up undisturbed. Map is surprisingly flat, although I'm sure I selected the default modest hills.

My setup is to place heavy weapons in the APCs, the infantry in approach to the woods I plan to use as the path. All vehicles on the road, tank first. I already have LOS to probable enemy positions, but the Pueppchen can't shoot that far.

Careful movement up to turn 5, where 1 infantry gun and several MGs open fire. I loose some infantry and 1 Halftrack with a 3" mortar that was already ordered away, but was still too close to the exploding halftrack. Losses are too high for me, need to calm things down. I carefully move the Sherman and other halftrack into sight, the Sherman knocks out the infantry gun.

I notice that the LMG teams can be overrun easily. The 12-man rifle squads literally beat them up and don't even need ammunition. This works even for splitted squads not under HQ control. Part of the problem is that the LMG folks have no hand grenades, whereas the U.S. rifle squads come with hand and rifle grenades.

At the half of the game I have a solid footing in the southern part of the village, while two teams from a splitted squad walk towards the southwest edge of the map to look for guns. Lots of LMG teams get knocked out, no guns in sight.

Time for mistakes. A gun opens fire on my infantry. Mee thicks is very smaaaarddd and ninja-macho weapon expert. The flight path of the shells is so high that can only be an infantry gun, which at this distance is harmless to my Sherman. Move up Sherman. Lose Sherman from Pueppchen. With all the direct-fire HE rounds I have in my whole force, kill count 1 gun, nothing else. Clap self on shoulder. If that dead metal heap would at least give cover, but no...

Anyway, things don't look so bad, southern half of map and 40% victory points under my control, LMGs teams without a chance. A church under my control looks like a suitable start point for house hopping and I move up the Kangaroo with a flamethrower. Doesn't work, too much lead flying around, FT team gets halfed and permanently panics.

The opponent was willing to give up positions to shoot on the flamethrower, so at least it is not at all in vain. I order 105mm VT arty towards a concentration of MG foxholes now recognized.

While waiting for the arty, I reorganize my infantry, which isn't in optimal state anymore, lots of "!". Each fighting for itself went well, but the occasional losses add up as I have only 6 squads for many opponents. Things are rocky now, buildings around my units magically explode with no reason identifyable.

After the VT arty fired half of its rounds and the enemy looks supressed (respectivly isn't visible anymore), I use the Kangaroo to bring up the other flamethrower team to a woods at the edge of the foxhole concentration. The 81mm mortar FO which I haven't used yet is supposed to fire smoke behind the woods (which is small enough to look through). Timing error, Kangaroo is too fast, arrives before smoke is ready. I bought it because it is so fast, me fool! Several enemy guns open fire on the Kangaroo and get spotted.

Kangaroo knocked out, but not a bad trade, I can't use it anymore anyway (it has no MG) and I know more gun positions. A small woods at the edge of the map contains at least three guns. Order VT arty there. My own smoke blocks the sight of my spotter, more delay.

The gun that knocked out the Kangaroo fires on the flamethrower. The extra-morale HQ I ordered into the area is not there yet, also due to the flamethrower's fast APC. I already ordered smoke by the on-map mortar a turn before, but is all too little, too late. Flamethrower breaks after firing twice, but at least the woods is clear, my infantry takes this position and shoots up broken LMGs still there from the artillery fire (which was just one turn ago).

The woods in question are near the large victory flag, opposite of the church I used for the former flamethrower attempt, so I now have solid positions at three side of the flag, with the fourth one apparently deserted since my Sherman shots on the building there.

The VT arty knocks out the three guns in the concentration in no time. Meanwhile, one recon team at the southern edge knocked out one pueppchen and reduces another one's crew to half before they it gets eliminated. Second Pueppchen quickly knocked out by a new squad moved there. Pueppchen's rate of fire is not enough to keep infantry away and crew is too small for hand-to-hand fighting. The LMGs covering these guns were in front of it and were long before knocked out.

Game approaches the end.

No approach towards the small vitory flag made yet and will not, since turns are running out. 81mm mortar FO is almost unused and not enough turns are left to select a useful target ==> blindly dump ammunition onto the area around the small victory flag.

That was one half of the stupid idea. The other half is that I ordered my remaining halftrack, which is out of ammunition, on the crossing with the large victory flag. It gets knocked out by a gun in some trees at the map edge. I really should have guessed that gun was there and used the off-map mortars to plaster the area just in case. What was intended to raise my victory level by having armor near the flag now means I have no armor anymore.

Anyway, it is the last turn and I order the remaining infantry towards the big flag. No attempt is made towards the small flag except that I hope that the off-map mortar gets one gun or another.

Result: Allied minor victory.

- points 55:45

- casualities 64:74

- 1 mortar destroyed, 4 vehicles knocked out : 7 guns knocked out

- men OK 44:57

Review of the battlefield shows:

The three gun concentration was actually 5 guns, 3 knocked out by the 105mm VT arty, one apparently by infantry, I didn't notice, one still alive but supressed (no kills). Given the overall number of guns, it was unavoidable to concentrate guns that much , there is just not enough trees elsewhere. The alternative would have been to place them in open ground or near houses.

Almost all Axis forces left are now around the small flag. 5 LMGs were placed very near the small flag and 5 Pueppchen on the way, in fire range towards the area around the big flag. These Pueppchen's fire didn't reach my forces because all my assaults came from the south and the range is not sufficient. Since no infantry guns were there and the LMGs are too far behind and the Pueppchens LOS was handicapped by the buildings, I have no doubt that I could have captured this flag given more turns, even with the weak forces now at my disposal. The remaining Axis force is much stronger than mine, but it can't move, I sit on the large flag and it couldn't even cover the approaches to the small flag.

Lessons learned:

- the mass LMG idea is nonsense except maybe in very open terrain with excellent inter-unit cover fire.

- I usually have good success with the fragile flamethrower teams (in combination with fast APCs) but this was too much fire from everywhere.

- I have to retrain my timing skills with the fast APCs.

- Use my artillery in time.

Alternative forces:

- M8 HMC are probably better for the price than the 105 Sherman.

- Stuarts may work, too, in combination with more mortars or artillery.

- Chaffee is probably great. Less armor than the Sherman doesn't matter in this hollow charge fest and the 75mm gun is way better than the cheap Stuart's one.

- Maybe veteran forces, don't know how much better they would spot. Even when they fired, guns were not spotted early enough in this game. Every little spotting improvement will have a big impact.

[This message has been edited by Martin Cracauer (edited 03-22-2001).]

[Juardis]

4 Charizards

4 Charmeleons

4 Blastoise

4 Warturtles

Sprinkled liberally with Water and Fire energies

Lots of remove energies, gusts of wind, potions and energy removals

Voila, my winning pokemon deck. No one can touch it, bwhahahahaha <evil laugh>

[Guest Martin Cracauer]

Originally posted by Juardis:

4 Charizards

4 Charmeleons

4 Blastoise

4 Warturtles

Sprinkled liberally with Water and Fire energies

Lots of remove energies, gusts of wind, potions and energy removals

Voila, my winning pokemon deck. No one can touch it, bwhahahahaha <evil laugh>

This force is clearly lacking mobility, just as the Axis one suggested earlier.

Earth is underrepresented as well, how are you going to hold ground without grunts?

[Guest Andrew Hedges]

Interesting AAR. The AI is really good at setting up guns and stuff on defense. I would have made slightly different purchase decisions (and I don't have my game open, so the points will be approximate). 1 x US Rifle Coy. The support weapons will be very useful at suppressing what the scouting squads discover. Your arty choices were right, I think. Forget the HTs and FT teams. Buy lots of sharpshooters; they will be in their element against 2 man LMG teams and gun crews. Buy lots! Also, they can help with scouting. But don't get them all killed.

I'm not sure what to do about armor; it's sort of risky against so many guns. Your thought about replacing the 105 Sherm with something like an M8 is not bad. 3 stuarts is not a bad idea, either; they have lots of MGs and, in a group of three, can do a lot of killing.

Alternatively, you could have no armor and more infantry. It's always nice to have a company, plus a platoon in reserve.

[killmore]

While I found that good positioning is not needed - a resonable one is.

You need to spread out the units somewhat. And give them reasonable range of fire.

Don't position pupchens so they can be fired upon from over 400 meters. But then again you can loose some of them.

Don't open fire until enemy AFV get closer.

Make attempt at some kind of cross-fire with MGs.

[killmore]

Originally posted by Croda:

Wow! That sounds like a lot of fun to play too! I bet it's great to be able to hit 'go' every turn without issuing a single order. I'm going to go home and play this and show it to my friends. It's win to be proud of.

Did you noticed that I said is is gamey and silly defense?

Cool off buddy!

I don't like it but is works well for me.

[killmore]

Originally posted by -Havermeyer-:

Me: Allied

2x81mm spotters (at 200 rounds/spotter).

Me: Round 2. Area target 400 rounds of smoke.

Me: Round 3. Move out.

Me: Round 6. Knifing kraut crews.

You: Round 12. Carrying and burying.

This works fine only if you know you expect this type of enemy defense...

[killmore]

Originally posted by Nabla:

I'd be really interested to know how the AI would be able to attack with the forces I just described. If you have the time and energy to try, please let me know the results.

This was purely defensive setup... Attack is not an option with these forces.